2015 PA12 Rudder/Skeg Cable Issues

can you show more pics of those stands your PA is on. Are they saw horses?

I talked about them in this thread:

http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=53529

Thank you.

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Derrick Daniels
2015 Hobie ProAngler 14'
~let pure air and sunshine invigorate you~

Well I took delivery of my PA12 today and have been tinkering in the garage all evening. As far as the skeg/rudder issue goes, it looks like I may be in the same situation. The PA came with the rudder and skeg already installed. There are no metal grommets or bushings, just plastic. Two of the suspect holes have no grommets just like the photos you guys posted. I'm a bit surprised at how jagged and nasty one of the holes looks. It's pretty obvious with the amount of tension on these ropes while in the retracted position that there is bound to be and issue. I'm really concerned especially since my summer temps outdoors and in my garage are well above 105. I plan on storing the PA with both the rudder and skeg in the down position. I have to be honest and say this is real disappointing after having just spent $4,000 on a kayak and accessories. I don't understand how this could make it by Hobie quality control. I'm debating on trying to find some nylon or metal grommets that I could install. I'm wondering what the Hobie folks think about that idea or will they provide us with some??? I wish I could just say that it won't happen to me, but I'd rather prevent the issue than deal with warranty work later.

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Cory
2015 PA12

Update:

Hobie engineers put a PA17 skeg through cycle testing pulling up and releasing the line.

The test is now at over 4,000 cycles. Well past a normal life of the system / wear. The groove is cosmetic and cuts through a little plastic flashing and compresses / smooths a radius and that is it... so far.

The grommets need help for sure. They should not cut. They are working on a fix.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Matt, thank you for the update. Will existing customers get replacement grommets? Is it wise to put white grease on the rope as some have suggested?

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Cory
2015 PA12

If we do a grommet retrofit... all owners can get it.

I don't know if the grease is good or bad. My instinct says silicone if anything. As noted in our testing, it doesn't appear to actually cause significant damage to the polyethylene. Just a radius-ed groove and stops. This is what engineers expected to happen. The poly is self lubricating.

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Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

If I were designing a system like this, I personally wouldn't accept a design that allows for that kind of damage. I'm sorry but to accept a design that 'wears' like that, on a premium product, seems improper. Molding the holes into a more oval shape or moving them entirely would probably have been a better option. Leaving this design in place means the need to adjust cable length to compensate as the groove cuts in and changes the effective length.

These aren't inexpensive Ascend kayaks where people might be willing to accept shortcuts. They are Hobie's. For the prices charged, consumers deserve a better design. Of course, better materials in the grommets could fall under the better design category.

I will probably disconnect the skeg cable and maybe remove the skeg on my new PA 14 until a fix is determined. I would not be pleased if my expensive kayak was worn or cut like that, even if Hobie says if is acceptable and has not caused any real damage.

I cannot imagine trying to explain that damage as acceptable and normal to a prospective buyer several years down the road if I would want to upgrade or change models.

I look forward to seeing what improved grommeting the engineering folks may come up with.

Respectfully,
Gladdly

I'm just going to rock the PA and if the line breaks and my skeg doesn't work then I'll talk to Hobie and they'll take care of it. Till then I am not going to worry about it. I'll just check it every month or so as I do on all parts and peddle on!

Should we store the skeg/rudders in the down position? When get back from the lake I park the yak/trailer in the garage and loosen up all the trailer straps wouldn't be that hard to just pop those down too.

I find it very interesting about the wear some guys are reporting.
My first Hobie Kayak was a 2010 Outback I bought in 2009 and never had any issues with the spectra lines carving up the grommets for either the rudder steering or the Up/down deployment.
Unfortunately, I did not keep track of the number of Outback outings from 2009 to 2013, but there were a bunch of days on the water.

I bought my PA-14 in July 2013.
Last year I kept a good record of my usage via the GPS on my Humminbird 768.....54 outings and 500 miles of trolling/fishing.
The following two photos show the inside of my rudder control and lines which show no appreciable wear and the underneath side where the line connects to the rudder.....I did install the larger rudder on 1-31-14 and I do not keep the rudder in the "up position" while on my trailer, on the road or in my garage.




I wonder what might have changed, if anything, as I consider myself a "real user of the Hobie kayak line" and have not encountered these other wear issues that are visually indisputable.

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Dr.SteelheadCatcher
Warrenton, OR

White grease, silicone grease or marine grease....whatever floats your boat. I used some white grease and it reduced the friction in those areas big. Silicone grease would probably do even better.
I would not count on self lubricating plastic to do that for you.
The skeg takes a lot more tention to retract because it has two more friction points where the line wraps tightly around a radius with no rollers or guides. Common sense says lube it up....it can only help...

Dr.Steelheadcatcher,

Your photos are fascinating. The areas in question look like new on your kayak.

The question of what changed is an excellent one. What is so dramatically different between the models to have caused the cause additional wear? It looks to my untrained eye as if the cable angles and hole placements look very similar.

If I were an engineer looking at your boat it would be very easy to draw the conclusion that the current design is working well.

Interesting, Very interesting......

Gladdly

See this ....
180* turn and no roller.....spring loaded skeg.....
What changed is the friction on the skeg vs the rudder...
Two more friction points with one being a tight 180*.
I greased the line here as well before it burns through the skeg.
Might try just tying the line directly to the hole in the skeg like the rudder is to eliminate that friction point and lesten friction overall.

I wanted to correct something I implied in the first post before someone tried it and screwed up. That is, that you could replace the skeg/rudder cables by simply pulling a new cable all the way through by attaching it to the end of the old cable. This is not the case. The cables are pulley assisted to minimize the effort of pulling. The skeg pull is particularly difficult, so it has two pulleys.

I took my new PA12 out today for the first shake down cruise. Overall I have to say that the Pro Angler is a phenomenal fishing machine. The seat is amazing. I debated getting a small one man pontoon boat, specifically the Colorado XT at Cabela's. I would have saved about $2,500 bucks by going that route, but I have to say that I don't think my back could've lasted all day in a pontoon boat the way I did in the PA. My back and butt never got sore once. I'm absolutely amazed at the Mirage Drive. I found that I could keep the seat lowered and put the pedals on notch 7, which would allow me keep my heels on the deck while pedaling ( I have size 13 feet!). This set up was awesome. I could keep my legs pretty much stretched out and just barley flutter my feet at the ankles (no movement in the knees at all). With just a couple inches of movement I was able to stay at about 1.5 mph and troll with very little effort.

As for the topic of this thread, I looked at my grommets very carefully before I made my maiden voyage. I was absolutely blown away after I got home to find that my skeg rope has already started to cut into the hull and especially the grommet. I probably raised and lowered my skeg 7-8 times on this trip. That is absolutely ridiculous! The skeg had no problems dropping, but I can see that if it cuts the grommet clean through, the rope will probably get hung up. There was no sign of problems with the rudder ropes at the area of the rudder, however I did notice that the white nylon insert in the grommet at the handle is wearing from the rope.I don't know if that will be an issue or not. The skeg issue in totally unacceptable. That rope comes out on such an extreme angle that I don't know why it was done that way in the first place. I'm no engineer, so I'll leave the Monday morning quarterbacking alone. But as a customer who just forked out $4,000 on a boat and accessories, this problem needs to be addressed quickly!

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Cory
2015 PA12