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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:45 pm 
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I have the Hawaiian style righting system, but I've never been quit sure of how its suppose to run between the front pylon and the back of each hull. Everything photo I have ever see has it on the outside of the side stays and back pylon so one would have to reach up and over to get it. When I rigged up my boat this season I ran it on the inside of the back pylon so its a lot easier to get when on its side. I can't imagine the angle of force changing much with this difference, and honestly some diagrams are a little ambiguous as to how it should be run. I haven't tried it out like this yet so I'm curious to know if anyone has any input on this?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:22 pm 
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Righting movement is the same leverage. Under the hulls you're gonna have to work your upper body hard, over the hull you can basically lean back and/or tie a loop in righting line and hook to your harness and almost hang there leaning back and a foot off the water to right it. I toss a thick ~ 20' line OVER the upper hull always. its stowed in a tramp bag just behind mast on tramp. I tried a bungee but it takes longer and you have to bounce more. Even the smallest extra second person tug makes righting my 16 or 20 easy @220lb. I keep a 20 gal righting bag on my 20 as a backup.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:12 am 
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I've only had to right it once, and I stood there leaning back pulling for quite a while until the water ran off the main sail, then it jumped right up. I have a Hawaiian rig and pulled on it from inside rather than looping over the top hull, like these guys.

So, you're saying the better way is to pull it over the top like these guys.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:44 am 
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I would try it both ways a few times. Which ever was is easiest for you would be the best. The key thing is getting out as far and low as you can. Over the hull seems easier for me. Seems like it takes less time to get boat upright that way.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:06 am 
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Tim is correct that the righting moment is the same either way as long as your weight is in the same position. Depending on how tall you are, it may be a little harder to hold on when run under the hull, but that can be helped by using the trap harness hook as Tim suggests.

When I had a similar system, I was too short to run the line outside the shroud......simply couldn't reach it that way. If you do run it outside, be extra careful to prevent it snagging ring dings on the shrouds......those should actually be taped either way.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 9:55 pm 
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Sorry, but it is not the same moment arm. You increase the righting moment by about a foot to a foot and a half by going on the outside of the hull. To calculate the difference you multiply your weight by the distance to the point of rotation which could be as much as 95 inches outside the hull or 83 inches inside the hull. I dont have my boat here to make the measurements, but this has been discussed at some length in the past.
I am only 5'8" and have never had trouble getting to the righting line. I use it about 5-6 times a season and also have never had to use a waterbag or other aid. If the wind is blowing enough to get you over, it is enough to right the boat again. Get the bows into the wind before leaning back. Walk on the lower hull to the forward crossbar and a little more and the boat will clock around like a wind vane. Then back to the middle of the hull to lean back. Get horizontal to the water to maximize force on the line and do not be gentle. Jerk and bounce all you want. If you have sealed your mast it will stay on top of the water. If it has turtled, go to the back of the hull and the bows will rotate up in the air. Quickly move forward and the mast will come to the surface and the hulls will rotate around the mast back into the water. You may have to do this manuever several times to get the mast to the surface.
Maybe I should actually do the calcs and take some measurements with freebody diagrams about the leverage thing. I may be surprized that it doesnt make that much difference. We'll see.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:29 am 
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You really want the righting line on the outside of the hulls hence why those two chaps using the line on the inside struggled for abit. Simular method is used with a righting pole, the further out your weight is against the boat the easier it will be to right. This will make a huge difference when forces are working against you i.e. swell, winds and body weight.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:14 am 
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The "point of rotation" is the lower hull which doesn't change with righting line location. Also, putting the line over the hull does nothing to get your weight further out (like a righting pole can).

Tiberius....find what works best for you!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:50 am 
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Well I was out sailing last night and flipped my boat on its side. Was able to right it just fine by myself with the righting line on the inside. Was actually the easiest time I have ever had righting my boat.

Kind-of glad my moment of not paying attention while talking to my friend on his nacra allowed me the opportunity to prove this concept before the regatta this weekend.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:51 pm 
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Torque required = Force x length of the moment arm. The longer the moment arm (distance from bottom hull to righting rope). The added mechanical advantage is the width of the hull. Same force, longer moment arm, less torque. Not significantly greater, but greater nonetheless.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:29 am 
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smattie wrote:
Torque required = Force x length of the moment arm. The longer the moment arm (distance from bottom hull to righting rope). The added mechanical advantage is the width of the hull. Same force, longer moment arm, less torque. Not significantly greater, but greater nonetheless.



The resultant force creating righting moment is the rotational force that's acting in the direction perpendicular to a line drawn straight out from the lower hull. The length from the hull to where that force is acting doesn't change with line placement....only with weight (body) placement.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:41 am 
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Having just created a free body diagram and rough calculations to consider the two scenarios, I've confirmed that over the hull or under the hull does not directly influence the righting arm. The driving force to righting the boat is gravity, which is acting purely in a vertical fashion. Therefore, the ONLY driving influences on righting ability are:

1) weight of the person or persons righting the boat, and
2) distance of the center of mass from the lower hull's center of buoyancy.

Whether the righting line goes over the top of the hull or underneath/inside of it, the only way to get more righting moment is to get your weight further out from the hull (get your body closer to parallel with the water surface). If your righting line is of fixed length, inside the hull would offer an advantage in that it will allow you to get your body closer to the water. That's not to say that it's going to be easier to grip the line one way or the other.

Also note that, as long as your sails are unsheeted and not holding any water, the greatest moment needed to right the boat will be when the mast is also parallel with the water surface - once you've got enough of a moment to get past that point and maintain it, the boat will right easily.

I agree that it is somewhat counter-intuitive that the righting line inside or outside the hull would have no effect, but the thing you have to remember is that you're not pulling in a "straight line" laterally from the outside of the hull, you're pulling at an angle. If you run the righting line inside or outside the hull, that angle changes, as does the tension on the righting line (you are not hanging from the line, therefore only a percentage of your weight is held by the line, the rest is held up by the lower hull - and it all changes when the angle changes). If your body remains in the same position in both scenarios, the righting moment stays the same. Once the boat passes the point of greatest heeling moment (mast parallel to water), the amount of righting moment needed begins decreasing. Only when you are hanging freely from the righting line and no longer standing on the lower hull does it become definitively advantageous to have the righting line on the outside of the hull, but by that time your body is in the water and the boat's own momentum and position of the center of gravity between the hulls will finish the righting maneuver.


Technical explanation (for those interested):
Image

You can look at either the moment as a result of the person's body weight, or as a result of the tension on the righting line. For simplicity's sake, I'm only comparing the effect of the location of the righting line, and assuming that the length is such that the person's body will be in the same position either way. In either case, a longer righting line would get the person closer to the water and improve righting moment.

In the first method, you can see that the two critical factors, the person's weight (Wp) and the rigthting arm (dp) are the critical factors in creating a righting moment. That moment must overcome the heeling moment of the boat, caused by the weight of the boat (WB) and the heeling arm (dB). This person needs either more weight, or more leverage.

In the second method, the righting arm (di) perpendicular to the tension on the righting line (Ti) is slightly longer than if the line were on the outside of the hull (do), but because the person's weight is not hanging directly from the righting line, the tension in the line is reduced by the angle between the direction of the force and the righting line. Tension (Ti) is less than (To) because (To) is more in line with the force (Wp), but given the shorter righting arm (do) for the outside and the longer righting arm (di) for the inside, the end result is that the righting moment remains the same. In other words, RM = di x Ti = do x To = dp x Wp, and in order to right the boat, we need RM > HM = dB x WB.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:05 pm 
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The free body diagram works for me! I stand corrected.


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