Weather helm when solo sailing TI

Hi everyone, newbie 2015 TI owner here. I just finished my 2nd solo sail with the TI- lots of fun, but in gusts of about 15mph, I've noticed weather helm when sailing by myself. I didn't notice this with 2 of us. Is this because the boat is tipping forward so the rudder is higher in the water? Does it help to sail from the back seat? I've been furling the sail occasionally and taking pictures so I prefer the front seat, but I'll probably switch to avoid this if it would help.

Wunder:
Let me start out, just letting you know my TI is highly modified, and it's been about 5 yrs since I have tried to sail a stock TI, however most of what I'm saying should apply to any TI.
First off if you look at the rudder on the TI, in comparison, the rudder is substantially smaller than lets say an H18, or a similar sized mono. Secondly the sail on the TI is boomless, which means there will always be more side load (the force trying to tip you over) vs forward driving force over an equally sized boomed sail. And thirdly the mast on the TI is mounted very far forward on the hull in order to accommodate the dual seating which effects performance some.
The AMA's on the TI are slightly light flotation wise, and if mounted a little wider, maybe 12 ft wide vs 10 ft wide, would allow a little more healing moment resistance vs the current configuration.
In order to remain easy and quick to rig and configure (the vast majority of owners like this feature the most), the TI does not have a jib sail, whereas most other boats of this size (ie... WETA, Windrider 17) have jibs, and are able to sail much closer to the wind.
Now the good news, The TI is by far one of the easiest boats out there to quickly rig and sail, and pretty much everyone is a huge fan of this aspect, most of the other boats mentioned are what are called complex boats, and it can be quite time consuming getting all of them ready and on the water (not so with the TI). With the Mirage drives the TI is in a class all by itself, you can sail a TI in conditions that none of the other boats mentioned would do well in.
Because of all the above, it's pretty easy to overpower a TI in winds over 12mph. Most people when sailing TI's monitor the tells, and try to get both tells to trail back thinking this is the most efficient and will give you the most power. Unfortunately in most cases in winds over 12 mph you are showing too much sail, or the heeling moment exceeds the design, or the side forces exceed the ability of the boat to sail effectively (ie.. weather helm). This is a pretty common thing, and almost everyone does this, thinking they will go faster, but the opposite is true, it actually slows you down not having the correct boat/sail trim to suit the conditions.
I think the whole trick to sailing is balance. You have to balance the power available (wind power) to match the capabilities of the boat. And because the TI has no jib and is only able to sail around 45 degrees into the wind this creates much more heeling force on the boat. In other words by over adjusting the sail (pulling the sail in too tight trying to squeeze every ounce of energy from the wind, this actually is hurting you. In most circumstances in higher winds it's better to furl the sail in a turn or two, or release the sail some (allowing the inside tell to dance). If you find you are experiencing weather helm chances are you have your sail too tight (the boat is out of balance), or you are showing too much sail to suite the conditions (the ability to furl the TI sail in higher winds sets this boat apart from all others). This is also where the mirage drive comes in and sets this boat apart from everything else out there, you can actually defeat physics (lol).
Personally I hate sailing from the rear seat on my TI, the bow is way up in the air, and the wind blows the bow around like it's nothing, making it way more difficult for me to steer, in higher winds I find it almost impossible to tack when sitting in the rear solo. Personally I feel the boat is much better balanced in all conditions sitting in the front seat, if you add spray skirts and tramps (all highly recommended) there is no better place to sit, and you will stay dryer. Another really big deal to me, is if sitting in the back seat there is absolutely no way whatsoever you can hike out to balance the weight of the boat out. Bottom line you have to get your butt out of those comfy seats to take full advantage of the capabilities of you boat. Think about it no other sail boat out there doesn't take advantage of the weight and balance of the passengers to maintain trim. The whole goal of any tri design is to keep the AMA's out of the water at all costs by crowding everyone over to one beam or the other, if your stuck and trapped sitting in the rear seat, there is absolutely nothing you can do to effect the performance of the boat balance wise (contrary to every type and make of boat out there (bar none)). Even Cats take full advantage of weights and balances, for example on a F18 cat without the all the crew hiked out on their tippy toes, the boat simply tips over in almost all conditions, same with any Laser or sunfish, if your on the wrong side of the sail, your going swimming. If you watched the Americas cup races every two minutes or so you see 15 guys scrambling from one side of the boat to the other (usually running at full speed), where they have two complete sets of steering wheels, grinders, sail controls, etc.
Obviously everyone is not up to extremes (me included), this is why I like the TI, If it gets too windy I can furl the sail some (vs hiking out), sure I don't go as fast, but who cares. Same with really light winds, why fight it, just start pedaling, that's what I do, actually I lightly pedal 100% of the time anyway pretty much all the time, pretty much anyone can lightly pedal a TI at a moderate walking pace all day long, and it makes a huge difference, keep in mind the boat is a pedal boat not a sail boat, so why try and make it do things it's simply not designed to do (it's not a Laser or a Sunfish, it's a pedal kayak that happens to sail well, so why not treat it as such). Exploit the positive aspects, and ignore the negatives, the mirage drive system and the really well designed furlable sail system overcomes pretty much everything that makes normal sailing so complex and hard, so why shoot yourself in the foot (pretending your in a Laser), and not take advantage of all the unique positives offered by this design making the TI totally unique in the world, in a class all by itself. ( I call it the fun class (lol)).
Hope this helps
Bob

Great advice, Bob. I'll try to follow most of it next time I get out.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Thanks for the detailed reply Bob!

Don't get me wrong, I love my TI- easily the most fun and practical sailboat I've ever used.

If I can summarize:

- Better to sail solo in front
- Furl or let out the sail to reduce weather helm

Will hiking out help reduce weather helm? I'll have to get a hiking stick for that... I have spray shields which helps keep me from being completely drenched in the front, but I haven't been using the tramps because they catch the wind (and without a hiking stick I can't sail out there anyway). Why is the hiking stick so expensive?

The only time I wistfully think about my old Thistle is when I'm trying to catch other sailboats- that ship was almost always the fastest monohaul on the water. But 95% of the time the TI is simply a blast, and so easy to rig, launch and trailer. I think I've sold a half dozen of them in the 1st month I've owned it.

Simple answer... yes! Especially as the wind increases. You will have more rudder authority and generally on any sail craft... move aft as wind increases. Bow will be up, but handling is better.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

The front vs rear seat when soloing a TI is one of the great debates of this forum. I'm a front seat guy.

I've found weather helm in windy conditions is more pronounced when soloing compared to two people in the boat.

I totally agree with Bob about the balance of the TI. In my early sailing sessions in windy conditions, I was reluctant to furl the sail, being an "experienced manly-man sailor". Through experience, I found that furling really doesn't hurt performance much at all, and makes for a much more comfortable, controllable and fun ride. The TI is never going to be the fastest boat on the lake. However, I was on Lake Michigan yesterday in 20 mph winds, and while only a few other sailboats were venturing out, we had a blast in the TI, albeit with 1/2-2/3 sail out.

Gary

2014 Tandem Island
1984 Hobie Hawk Glider

Formerly had a AI and I've only been sailing my TI for a couple of months but yes, if you want to fly full sail, moving back is my answer. I like to mix it up still though.

I use hakas but don't really like moving out to them but one can lean aft from one to help with weight balance. I looked at the quarterdeck mod for the AI and have worked on an adaptation for my TI.

The AI quarterdeck:

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=47254

For a TI version, I used heavy weight 1.5" by 6" PVC fence material fixed on both sides of the rear crossbar with cushions on top. (I think the fence rail is thicker than Home Depot version. It was left overs from some fencing I put up at my place years ago.) Cushions don't work great and I haven't added a backrest yet. If I keep it, I'd make a custom cushion and add a backrest possibly. PVC fence rails are bolted to an aluminum angle under the crossbar, a tight clearance fit only. The front one is longer than the rear so amas can fold with the rails in place.

I like to launch and land from the front seat and generally prefer sailing from the front seat. But it's nice to pop out of that onto the bench, which moves weight back, and at the same time while there I can move weight to the side if needed. Then sometimes I just go ahead and move back to the back seat and sail from there too if the wind is up in that zone where I can sail from there and not reef. That moving fore and aft isn't easy for me though, I'm not all that spry. Now I'm considering if I want to add a grab rail down the gunnel, like maybe Hobie H-Rail. Can't find where it can be bought or even if it would work but maybe something similar, or just a grab knob, rope or something to aid in moving fore and aft. However, at some point, simple is just better, so I might strip it all off back to the basics.

_________________
Duff

I'm probably the last guy that should be giving TI sailing advice here because I've dug myself way too deep in all my human power/energy efficiency crap that I don't even go out anymore if the wind is over 5-7 mph (which is pretty normal here most of the year).
I don't get to do the stuff I like to do the most near often enough anymore (diving and snorkeling, can't dive alone).
I have all my tramps re-enforced with 5 lengths of paracord running from the front AKA back to the rear AKA under the tramp so the tramp easily holds my extreme girth now without my butt dragging in the water (200 lb tramp capacity is not nearly enough (lol)).
My Hiking stick is just a simple piece of 3/8 dia pvc water pipe with two side holes drilled in one end, then a para cord loop is on the end that slides over the steering ball (cost about $2 bucks and 5 minutes to make. When not being used as a hiking stick, the PVC is plugged in at the back of my boat and doubles as both my dive flag holder mast, and holds my white navigation light. To be honest the only time I hike out anymore is on really long legs offshore with a steady wind going from city Island up to Paradise Island or Egmont Key (about 25 miles each way) to meet our powerboating friends for the day, I just lay out on the tramp because it's comfortable. The trip is so boring my wife usually rides with the powerboaters (lol, kinda sucks actually (some call this mutiny)). It actually takes me less time and fuel to get up there to Egmont Key by water than driving all the way up to ft desoto (90 minute plus drive(half a tank of gas in our suv) pay $6 bucks to launch, then sail the 7-8 miles over to Egmont. I can powersail there from Sarasota in a little over two hours using about a buck or two in fuel each way (vs $40 bucks in fuel with suv, parking and tolls to get there via car, actually saves me time and money (lol). Just guessing here but I'm willing to bet our powerboat friends are spending way more in boat rental ( a few hundred) and fuel (around $75) than us ($2-3 bucks, just saying).
I sometimes take really long day trips (50-60 milers), with a possibility of being caught out after dark so I maintain a set of full navigation lights on the boat (the red/green jobbies), plus I always carry a couple hundred miles of fuel on board just in case of emergency and all the safety crap (fm radios, flares,etc). The lights are the Atwood led ones you get at Walmart for around $40 bucks, and I keep them in a dry bag just in case. It's probably a good idea to have a good flashlight on board as well because channel markers are near impossible to see at night, plus everything looks the same at night, and it can be really difficult to find your launch point and your car in the dark (lol), especially on a moonless cloudy night. Another thing I do anymore is mark my launch point on my GPS just as a matter of habit, and physically turn around and look for landmarks you can identify 10-12 hrs later when you come back. I can't tell you how many times we have launched around Key Largo, then come back in not knowing for sure where we launched from (especially there everything looks the same day and night).
I'm guessing this makes me a non-sailer and I probably should be voted off the Island (lol).
As a side note even with my massive sail sets (I fly up to 260 sq ft of sail at times, and big ole Twin Honda outboards, obviously my TI is modded just a little) I have never experienced much weather helm.
Obviously I'm really bored sitting here writing this because I can't go out in thunderstorms again this weekend, 4 weeks in a row now (really sucks), I might need to build an Arc.
Bob

I hear you Bob. This wet weather is the worst I've seen in 20 years. Can't wait to see the Arc you design

This year has been very wet out here in northern NM (currently, raining and 55 deg.) Hopefully, it will keep up, because there has been a severe drought in western US for at least 10-15 yrs. All the lakes and reservoirs are way down.

Keith

_________________
2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

I like the back of the TI for many reasons other than sailing.
1. Overall better view of the water and the TI/equipment while moving.
2. Less spray.
3. Have my Honda 2.3 back there to operate and refill with fuel.
4. Just ran all new rudder lines and opted to eliminate the front seat controls, simplify.
5. I fish all the time, it's my main goal in the TI. Now I have my rods in front of me in the railblaza rod holders on each ama arm. Also, for landing fish, I don't have to collapse an ama on the kayak from the back seat. Land them from which ever side the rod is on.

When out solo, I just use the front seat for storage, big cooler, wheels etc.
Love the TI solo over the AI. Poor AI, doesn't get any love anymore.

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Mark
Tandem Island- 2013
2 - Sports - 2014

I've tried sailing solo from the rear. I don't like the fact that is harder to furl the sail and raise/lower the dagger board. I'll stick to the front when soloing.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

_________________
2015 Hobie Tandem Island Hibiscus
"Third Normal Form"

• Trampolines
• Hobie cover
• Davis Spar Fly
• Kayakbob's Sprayskirts
• Spine Board Hakas

Yes, Tom, those are the only two things negative about the back seat. But can be compensated for and not that big of a deal. First, for back seat furling, if you don't modify existing TI for Harken on the rear aka, just tie off the furling line onto the end of the main line. I already have to get up or squat to reach my rods properly on the rear akas, thus the Atwood seat (sitting higher and farther forward), so to reach the dagger board is no worse, easy to do. To release or engage the harken on the front aka with the furling line can be a little trickier. Might have to stand up to release, squat forward and pull down to engage.
For this inconvenience, I still would rather be in the back seat. For me the back seat positives outweigh the negatives. All depends on what your trying to do and the mods you have made. Very versatile craft, the TI.

_________________
Mark
Tandem Island- 2013
2 - Sports - 2014

Weather helm in that sort of wind is expected, just feedback from the boat telling you something is out of balance. Using more sail area than needed is fun, wet but not really as efficient. Furl the sail a couple of turns and the helm should disappear. My normal sailing venue is a lake in Pennsylvania, with shifty variable winds. I am constantly adjusting the reef in over 10 knot winds. Upwind I use less, but will adjust when tacking sometimes if the wind force changes. Right now the water is warm and temp is close to 90 so getting wet is preferred, not really faster but way more fun. Also very entertaining for the sailors in normal boats.
Not having a boom really changes sail trim, still learning about this. I just figured out about letting the lee ribbons flow up, it worked quite well. Regarding pointing ability the boat is not too bad. I was playing with a GP 14, and a couple 20 foot monohulls yesterday and did pretty well going upwind. Can't point as high but can get pretty close.
The seat choice seems to be a personal thing, I like the forward seat when solo, it is wetter but the controls are all there. The bow may tend to bury in the puffs, but refer to my earlier statement about reefing.

So try both seats, and play with the reef line. You will get a feel for it over time. This boat is one of the easiest sailboats to sail but also very challenging for the experienced sailor. I have decades of practice in hobie 16s, lasers, windsurfers, etc and still get a kick out of the mirage tandem.

Thanks. I didn't realize how well tuned for performance my old Thistle was and got spoiled I never had an issue with weather helm or downwind performance. But I have no regrets on the TI- super fun boat. The mirage drive is really something too.