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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:50 am
Posts: 19
Location: Annapolis, MD
Yes, "feathering up" means turning into the wind enough to stop heeling (on a mono-hull) or reduce the risk of capsize, but not so far into the wind that you stall.

I'm still not positive, but I think I may have been farther off the wind than I thought I was, so I should have turned away and blown the sheets. I was making 13kts, and I think some centrifugal force from the hard turn along with a 20kt gust pushed me over.

The guys at my sailing club could teach me all this, but my vehicle trailer isn't road legal yet, so I can't get the boat over there.

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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:09 am 
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 3:15 pm
Posts: 611
Location: Buffalo, NY
"feathering up," "pinching (up)," "pointing up," "pointing high," it all means sailing very close to the wind, a bit closer than close-hauled. You're not making your best upwind speed, but you're still moving forward and not stuck in irons.

In a gust, you want to hike out and let the mainsheet out first. Steering costs you valuable speed. Cats don't have the momentum that monohulls have, so it bleeds off quick. Your first reaction should be hike out and sheet out, then point up slightly if it's still too much wind. I'd advise getting at least your crew on the wire, as it gives you a lot more leverage and helps keep you stable.

However, please note that steering becomes much more difficult/less effective when heeled over significantly. You really want the boat close to flat to steer, especially if you're trying to bear off/turn away from the wind. A little heel and the boat will want to turn to windward (and will NOT bear off), but too much and it just won't respond to your tiller inputs. When you have a hull high in the air (say 45 degrees of heel or more), pulling on the tiller to turn away actually keeps the boat from going over, whereas trying to turn up into the wind at that point will just make your rudders lose their grip on the water and help you go over. Close hauled should be about 35-45 degrees apparent wind angle, broad reach should be 90 degrees. Hull flying only happens on a close-hauled or reaching course, and you only want to run downwind if you're getting gusts on a broad reach.

As soon as the hull starts to come down, you want to sheet back in to "catch" the fall and glide down, and maybe even turn down a little to build back your speed. Slamming down into the water, as you've observed, is terribly inefficient.

As far as your speed goes, sounds about right I suppose. I sail an H18, but I typically end up maxing out around 12-13 mph upwind if I'm not trapping out. Can't keep the boat down after that. If I'm on the wire, I usually max out around 18 mph. Downwind, I've hit 20.40 mph. Note that upwind a catamaran should be able to sail at close to the speed of the wind, and on a broad reach, your fastest point of sail, you should be able to get to about 1.25 - 1.5x wind speed. Max speed for a 16 seems to be somewhere between 15 and 20 mph.


Last edited by SabresfortheCup on Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:12 am 
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 3:15 pm
Posts: 611
Location: Buffalo, NY
greensnopro wrote:
Well the ice has been broken for me now! Flipped it this weekend with my girl all went well other than the actual reason we flipped, It was during a tack when I let it get stuck in the irons, i was trying the steer the boat backwards because i thought that was right, it was a VERY gusty day on the lake, i had my sheet cleated but very loose, next thing i knew the boom came my way, the far side of the boat went up,.... i made it over but the GF couldn't get there and slid off, I dropped off when the boom hit the water lol. I'm not exactly sure how it all happened or why, but after my GF fell off the boat while pulling the first time we got it flipped up the second time without to much trouble and no help from the boats offering to throw i line which to me was very important. on a side note the wind gave me alot of fly time, got my girl out on the trap and she loved it,(she was terrified at first and took alot of coaxing) I got to practice holding the sheet close to my chest and working it out and turning at the same time, it was a great day on the H16 !!


greensnopro, glad you had a great time on the water! Not the "ideal" capsize, but then again, most capsizes are not under ideal circumstances anyway, otherwise you wouldn't be capsizing! Glad to hear that nobody got hurt and you were able to right the boat without difficulty. Once you lose that fear of going over, you can really push the boat and put it through it's paces and become much better at controlling and sailing the boat! Happy sailing!


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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:50 am
Posts: 19
Location: Annapolis, MD
Sabres-

That's interesting. Sounds like I was pushing the limits for singlehanding without trapping out.
I had no idea what my limits should be.

Thanks for the advice!

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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:28 am 
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 2:28 pm
Posts: 91
Location: Chicago
Quote:
I was making 13kts, and I think some centrifugal force from the hard turn along with a 20kt gust pushed me over.


Yes 13 kts on a H16 upwind is pretty good. When the boat heels up and you turn up into the wind, there is a centrifugal force that makes it want to sway leeward for a moment so you have to react before you hit the tipping point, and of course dump sail and get weight off the side. I try to pinch high make small turns, but if the gusts are clocking around a lot that can be hard.

The only additional thing I can think to suggest is when there are strong gusts, after you get weight over the side on traps, hold the main uncleated and steer to maintain your trim, if there is still too much pressure hitting you then let the travelers out a little at a time to depower the boat upwind. Make the jib match the main - travelers in similar positions.

There are a few other things you can do before going out, like crank the downhaul to stretch the main as tight as possible and rake the mast back a bit by pinning the side shrouds in lower holes on the adjusters. Be aware though that raking the mast back pulls the center of gravity backward, giving you more weather helm and a stronger pull on the tiller. There are books on all the aspects of rig and trim. Check out Catamaran Sailing for the 1990's by Rick White. It helped me a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:56 pm
Posts: 740
Location: Los Angeles
There "IS" a point of no return but there are so many variables that will determine exactly what that is !!! Nevertheless, when you get there......you will know it !!! Did you know that a solid trampoline will make your boat more prone to capsizing than a mesh one ??? Go figure !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Just so you know, you're not considered to be a "REAL" Cat sailor until you've been dunked at least a couple of times !!!

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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:43 pm
Posts: 114
:lol: :wink: I'll be back out looking for a good dunking this weekend! I can't wait. after doing some searching on here, I've made myself a solo righting board so my confidence grows! I may even try Lake Michigan :o
Also it was fun to find the definition for my girlfriend of what she did her first time on the trap for me, the "tinkerbell" :lol: :lol: :lol: we had a good laugh on that


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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 7:10 pm
Posts: 25
Here's a great first time trapping.

https://youtu.be/Fwn5Q8IQ_IE


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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:43 pm
Posts: 114
now thats how you trust the trap wire will hold you, total commitment!


Last edited by greensnopro on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: point of no return?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 6:39 pm
Posts: 77
Should have kept the video going! I'm still laughing. That's a heck of a way to sheet in the jib! How far did you sail before you turned around? At least you got to practice the man (woman) overboard drill - or didn't you?


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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:35 pm
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Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
shadow wrote:
Here's a great first time trapping.

https://youtu.be/Fwn5Q8IQ_IE


The look on her face! That was great!


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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:14 am 
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Notice in slowmo as he grabs the trap. You can almost hear him say, "honey, you forgot something"! Gosh, I'm still laughing - 12 hours later.


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 Post subject: Re: point of no return?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:28 am 
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Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 7:10 pm
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Glad yall enjoyed it as much as I did. Any time I need a good laugh i watch the video.
Granted to her defence the trap wire wasn't setup right yet so it fell off the hook.
I remember hearing the splash as I saw the trap wire hanging infront of me and think just that ...um honey you forgot to hook in.


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