Torqeedo Cruise 4.0 on a PA14?

Hi all

I am new to your wonderful forum and first of all would like to say thanks for all the valuable reading.

Looking to get me a fishing kayak here in Thailand where i live and considering the following models: Hobie PA 14, Feelfree Lure 13.5 and Moken 14.
I bought a Torqeedo Crusie 4.0 for my boat 6 months ago, but ended up repowering the boat with twin outboards, hence the Torqeedo was suddenly not needed for the boat and I keep thinking about it might be a good match for a good fishing kayak?

Open questions:
- If I go for the PA14 or Lure13.5, then I could mount the motor via the (evolve) hole and mid under the kayak. Would it hurt the efficiency vs. making a mount and hanging on the back? I could foresee a bit more stability having it right under the kayak - working a bit like the heavy keel on a sailboat?
- Seriously considering the sleeker Moken 14, as the sleeker design should be more efficient on the water. But as I plan to mainly use the yak to flyfish along the coastlines and islands, stability is very important.
- Target is to be able to go 4-6 mph to and from fishing spots and maybe travel 20-25 miles in a full day, without running out of juice.

Planning to power the motor with 4 x 12v LifeP04 batteries with individual BMS's - considering 40-60Ah at the moment. 60 Ah is almost 4000Wh (48v) and will be equal to 1 hour WOT. Though I hope that 500w will be enough for most of my usage to get around. Any thoughts on what capacity to target and what wattage to expect at 4-6 mph?

Along with the Torqeedo Cruise I also ordered the V30P4000 prop, Torqtrac, anode, extension cables etc.

Pleased to hear your inputs or ideas towards or against this idea.
& tight lines

P.S. I have owned a Ronnest 15' kayak with the Torqeedo 403 for 4 years in Denmark and been very happy with the performance this small package brings. I would buy another 403 in a heartbeat, but now I got the Cruise lying around on the 6th month and keep thinking it could be fun on a kayak... Although I know what the 403 is capable of, it is hard to convert the expectations towards a 48v 4000w motor.

That motor is a beast ......... It will push a fully loaded flat bottom aluminum bass boat at 10 mph and takes a lot of battery power. The first big concern is how to mount it. It is much heavier than the 403 and it has a lot of power which means a lot of stress on the mount which is on thin plastic. You also will need to rig up steering because I think the motor will overpower the hobie rudder.

I would LOVE to see it if you figure it out. That sucker will literally fly .......... Way over 10 mph with that hp ........ But it will take some engineering .......... Just my opinion.

I've recently been named to the Torqeedo Pro Staff so I'll ask the team and Torqeedo what they think. They will love it if it works.

Thanks for your inputs and advice Memory Maker.

Yes there will be a couple of challenges to overcome...

- Proper motor mount. There are many small Aluminium work shops around here, so I should be able to solve this somehow and get one of these workshops to make a nice mount for the kayak. Also considering to ditch the wheel and connect the mount with a big pin down there, which should help to distribute the forward moving forces directly into the kayak and not by 6-8 bolts alone.

- Steering. I know the footsteering is not the best in the world, but was hoping it would work? On my 403 in Denmark it also seems like it is not able to steer very sharp, but when I am in the boat and cruising around it works perfect. I dont see a need to be able to turn the motor more than 20-30 degrees - so i still hope the pedal steering will be sufficient? And I think to have a chance to make the original pedal steering work, I would need to mount the motor in the lowest position possible, so the steering cables are not going up in a sharp angle, when they exit the holes on the kayak.

- Mounting the motor in the aft. or midships via mirage pod/fishfinder pod? I think I am getting set on having the motor on the aft. I would not be able to tilt it up, if I have it midships and the prop would have to be demounted every time the motor goes in or out.

- Shorten the shaft length. From what I can google, I can see some people have done this to the travel 1003 and as the "basics" looks pretty similar on the 2 motors, I think it should be possible, but no warranty after this off course... Not sure if anybody from the Pro staff are allowed to chime in on this? (the motor is in Denmark right now and I will pick it up within a couple of months, but I would like to get started rigging the kayak, making motor mount, set up batteries etc. But if the motor then shows to be impossible to shorten the shaft on when I go pick it up, then the whole idea is falling apart..

- Battery pack. Currently considering:
4 x 12V 60AH Lithium Battery Pack size 190*140*60 mm
net weight:3.5kg
or
4 x 12V 60AH LiFePO4 Battery Pack size 170*140*130 mm
net weight:6kg
(both includes BMS and are rated to 100A discharge and 200A max discharge current) = 2880Wh or app 45 min WOT.
Does anybody have any idea what wattage the Cruise 4.0 will consume when moving 5-6 mph? (I am hoping less than 300w, but maybe dreaming?)
I know the 403 can do 6mph at WOT on a similar kayak. So can I use the following calc. to estimate anything? 400w/29.6v roughly equates to 300w/48v? If I can, then I think I will love the setup with the Cruise as the 2880Wh "should" give me 9 hours of 6mph cruising.

- Kayak model. I will go and take a look next week and possible try before I buy, if they can offer me that.
Currently I am most excited about the FeelFree Lure 13.5, it seems like a very stable platform and the seat that can be jacked up 30-40 cm in height, seems to be a flyfishermans dream.

- Fishfinder. I have the Garmin Echomap 92sv on my boat, so I will buy one more transducer and an extra mount, allowing me to use the same unit on the kayak incl. the sideview which is a really nice feature when searching for fish along the coastlines. Will be powered by a small seperate 12V "house" battery, only big enough to run the sonar/gps for 10-15 hours.

My needs for this rig is to be able to go app. 10 km to and from fishing spot and be able to manouvre/drift/troll 5-6 hours around some islands.

I like the line from Jaws where the guy says 'your going to need a bigger boat'.
The PA 14 in my opinion is really more for inland waters (lakes and rivers), or very protected near shore in mostly protected (like inter-coastal waters). It may not be stable enough for offshore use and would likely struggle in 2 ft chop.

The Cruise 4.0 weighs in at 37 lbs and is likely too much motor for the PA14. (the boat would become top heavy and unstable), especially once you add another 110 lbs of batteries.

However if you plan to fish offshore the Hobie Tandem Island has much more capability and is used by many offshore fishermen (quite probably the ultimate off shore fishing platform out there today). The TI is a trimaran 10 ft wide so it will be almost impossible to capsize, plus it has more weight carrying capacity (you can easily carry 3-4 adults if needed with the tramp option). That Cruise 4.0 motor and 110 lbs of batteries would be too much for an Adventure island (single seat version of the same boat).
We have a Tandem Island and have twin Honda 2.3 engines mounted on the boat (it is specifically hardened and rigged for offshore use). The Honda's weigh in at around 27 lbs ea, and with properly designed motor mounts (a little more heavy duty than what people would normally mount), the boat should be able to be made to work with your cruise 4.0.
Another advantage with the TI is it has the two big tramp areas on each side which would be perfect for two very large banks of solar panels, possibly enough to propel the boat at moderate speeds without having to tap into your batteries.

With the motor in the back of the boat and the battery banks mounted somewhere near the font of the boat you should be able to stay within the weight limits of the boat (600 lbs), you may not be able to haul 4 people on it (too much overall weight), but two normal sized people should be fine.
motor 37 lbs
power 26-104 battery 52 lbs
additional 26-104 battery 52 lbs
total 141 lbs plus 2 passengers and gear (425 lbs) = 566 lbs (which is easily within the comfortable weight range on a TI). We have had ours out with over 700 lbs (total weight) before with no issues, however you get much over 700 lbs and the boat sits too low in the water (just speaking from experience on my own TI).

The motor will need to be mounted next to the rod holders on one side or the other of the main hull, it will need to be mounted as close to the hull as possible and tilted slightly (so the prop is almost under the boat). You will mount one battery inside the front hatch and the second battery will have to be mounted just behind the front seat over the rear mirage drive area (the rear mirage drive will be disabled with the hole plugged). You will have to operate the boat from the front seat. I would lock the tiller and just use the boats rudder for steering. Get the remote throttle option so you can operate the throttle from the front seat.

Since you will only ever be operating the motor on very low throttle you can probably use the slow speed figures to calculate battery usage. Because the boat only weighs 200 lbs (way lighter than the boat they likely used in their tests, if you have a higher pitch prop at those same low throttle settings (and current usage) the boat should travel at around 5-6 mph with almost no effort. Basically without the solar panels with twin batteries you should be able to get 20 hrs of run time (or around 120-150 miles). Add a couple banks of solar panels and the range will be unlimited (in the sun).

The TI is of course a sail boat, but it's doesn't sound like your too interested in that, however it's takes all of 15 minutes to learn how to sail a TI (by far the easiest boat anywhere to learn how to sail). If it were me I would take the sail along (just furled up and lashed to the deck), so in the event of problems you can always just put the sail up and sail home, or use the mirage pedal drive (or both). The sail is super easy to put up or down on the water). By using both the sail and the electric propulsion at the same time you should be able to double/triple your available range.

With our twin Honda outboards (we have high pitch propellers mounted on both motors) we never have a need to run the motors at any higher that 1/4 throttle, both motors running at just above idle propels our boat to 6 mph, at 1/4 throttle the motors propel the boat to 8 mph. We are using 3/4 of a hp from each motor (1.5 hp total) to propel the boat to 6-8 mph. Each motor with it's 1 quart fuel tank runs around 3 hrs on a tank of fuel. Since the motors have underwater exhaust at very low throttle they are very quiet (you can easily talk over them). We never operate the motors at anything over 1/4 throttle. If your familiar with the 'proportion to the cube (third power) rules of speed' on water which means
to double your speed requires 8 times more horsepower, you will discover with any electric propulsion it's just not worth trying to go fast, settle for 6-8 mph (which are all still under the hull speed max values of displacement hulls) you should be fine.

The Cruise 4.0T (if that is what you have) is equivilant to an 8 hp outboard and has sufficient power to propel a 2-3 ton big boat. Since the TI only weighs 200 lbs, you will never need all that HP so my advise would be to mount as high a pitch props as you can get. With high pitch props just the propellors spinning very slowly in the water under very low power settings is enough to likely propel the TI to 6-8 mph (at way under 1/4 throttle (likely very close to the slow speed factor in their calculation tables)).

We mostly use our TI offshore in So Florida and the Florida keys mostly for scuba diving, snorkeling, and spear fishing.

Hope this helps
FE

Fusioneng - thx alot for your inputs.

I have been looking at both the TI and the Island adventurer, but at the end of the day I would like a yak I can put on the roof of the car, be mobile and able to go discover new areas.


This is from the botom of my favorite lagune which is app 400x100m and almost always calm like a mirror. The shallow waters/reef edges comes alive every 10-15mins when Barracuda, King Macks and Trevallys are coming in on kill raids, basically billions of small fish jumping for their lives. Cannot wait to be stalking the action in the yak and with my #10 flyrod

I have a 27' sportfisher which I just repowered with 2x150hp Mercury outboards, so the intention with the kayak was to use it the days where I am alone as the boat is a bit of a handfull to handle alone with 5 Rapala Xraps deepdivers in action. So a TI or Trimaran is not what I am looking for eventhough it could be sweet with the 4x200w 36vdc solar panes which I also managed to buy for the Torqeedo, the package will just become to large and complicated. I want something simple and small which is easy manouverable so I can hunt down the action in the bays.

The main part of the 17kg motor is at the drive and I hope it will work a bit as a stabilizer when tilted down? (a bit like a heavy keel, but positioned aft in this case, but with 25 kg of batteries in the front it should equal out the weight nicely)

The batteries I am considering are Lithium or LifeP04 batteries, so a 60Ah pack will weigh in just around 24 kg and seperated in 4x12V packs, so I can place them carefully on the kayak for best weight distribution.

Also already thinking about filling the scuppers and adding a small bilgepump? and possibly also fill out the hull "strakes/lines" if these intrude into the kayak too much. This would add a bit more floatation to the kayak and reduce the drag in the water. (depending on if I can find nice epoxy or plastic product/glue so I can make it a strong bonding.)

The motor I have is the 4.0 RL with remote control, but as I ordered it as Longshaft for my boat, it will def. have to be shortened. (a bit sad, but I hope I will be happy with the results and use the yak for many years)

Cheers

It never dawned on me that the motor itself (the weight of the motor below the water) will help tremendously stabilizing the boat (PA) in rougher water. I use the same exact technique on my TI when I want to take it out sailing without the big AMA's. I have a 50 lb weighted swing keel (2 ft below the boat) that I use for sailing, it makes the kayak pretty much un-tippable.



If I was coordinated enough I could have stood on the rail with the weighted keel in place (as you can see by the pic I'm wet, so I tried that first (lol)
.

Your idea just might work, the HP and power requirements of the PA 14 and the TI are very similar so the speeds and battery life should be similar to what I stated. The whole trick is using higher pitch props than what people would normally recommend, Because the boats are so light, nobody in their right mind would put such a big motor on such a light boat, That's why I typically ignore what the powerboat people try to recommend (always with good intentions of course), The circumstances are completely different on lightweight kayaks (your kind of breaking new ground here), so you kind of need to blaze your own trails.
Since you already own the motor, your not really out much trying it. Even if it doesn't work out (ends up too big and heavy), whatever alternate solution you come up with ( ie... 2.3 Honda outboard) you can likely use the same motor mounts and rigging.

FE

............ The sentiment with the pro staff is that it is new territory. Torqeedo says that it must be kept within the boats hp rating. However, I don't think a PA has a rating. The general feeling is that it is probably suicide and the yak could come apart due to the stresses. That's a lot of weight and hp for the yak. ........... If you do it you are on your own ....... But it would be awesome if it works ( my opinion) and I'm not encouraging you.

There is a new yak out that would probably be better suited for it. its called the Solo Skiff and its suited to you kind of fishing and can probably better take the engine but it is rated to 5 hp so that is for you to decide and check out. I am not recommending anything ......... Just presenting an alternative. It's only rated for 5 hp and 400 lb capacity but it has a much thicker hull and you can also get it in a composite. http://www.soloskiff.com/

There's also a bunch of YouTube videos on it ........ One has a Torqeedo but not the 4.0

Thx again, good inputs all of them.

Got me so far that I think the PA14 will be a better match than the FeelFree Lure, as it has 600 lbs weight capacity vs. 425 lbs on the Lure.

Tomorrow I will go to the Marina and see the Hobie dealer, I know they have a TI in the showroom, but the weight of the PA must be around max. what I would be able to load on the roof without banging up the car.

The Hobie PA rear end also looks like it has many options on how to design and mount a nice aluminium mount for the engine.

I know it is a bit crazy, but I already have the Torqeedo motor and I am curious and want to try it out. I also think the magnetic kill switch is a perfect safety feature - as long as i remember to secure it to my body

Nice day to you all

.......... I would also install some stabilizers .......... PAs will turn over

Under the right conditions, all water craft will "turn over".....including a cruise ship

_________________
Dr.SteelheadCatcher
Warrenton, OR

Thx again

Stabilizers/pontoons could be mounted later if necessary.

But, as everything is more or less waterproof / will be made with waterproof connections etc. (motor, batteries, fishfinder etc) I actually dont mind if I get a dip once and a while. The waters are typically 30-32 degrees C and I think the Cruise 4.0 has the same feature as the ultralight 403, with somekind of internal gyro-thing that can sense when the boat is tilted heavily or upside down and will cut the motor off + I "should" be attached to the magnet key switch, so the motor will turn off by itself. (though I know I need to learn to remember to attach this as I forget it on my Boat all the time)

This is of course just my opinion, I don't have a PA but have seen quite a few. My impression of it is the boat is more suited to inland waters, and not very seaworthy for offshore use. Where we live two ft chop is pretty typical I simply couldn't imagine staying upright or not constantly getting swamped (waves over the deck), and the hull fairly quickly filling with water. Now your adding another 150 lbs (motor and batteries) to an already unstable boat.

We car top our TI all the time, our TI is lighter and easier to load on the roof than a PA would be. I'm pretty sure I couldn't get a PA up there by myself. The TI is very long with lots of handholds, making it pretty easy to get up on the roof one end at a time, the most you have to lift is around 50 lbs.
All just my opinion here, but running a severly over powered PA thru surf at 20mph plus will end badly for you. Whereas because my TI is longer (18.5 ft (20 ft with bowsprit), and 12 ft wide (the boat has been widened to make it un-capsizable). I've been powering thru offshore chop for several years now with a severely overpowered TI without any major problems, sometimes in 3-4 ft seas.
If your not into sailing, instead of a kayak, why don't you just get an inflateable RIB boat (like a zodiac), those are typically rated to 25 hp.
And probably way easier to car top.
Actually we will likely be getting one (inflatable rib) once our TI wears out.
However if you plan to stay very close to shore, and plan to explore inlets, mangroves, and backwaters, nothing out there beats the PA and it's mirage drive (what it was born to do).
FE

FE all your inputs are received with thanks.
But I still really want to do this on a SOT fishing kayak.

The motor is 17 kg and most of the weight is at the drive = low as a keel in the water.
The battery packs I am looking at will be either 14 kg for Lithium or 24 kg for LifeP04 pack (4 x 12v60Ah incl. BMS) so I will be closer to 100 lbs for the motor incl. the motor mount.

I felt pretty comfortable on my Rønnest kayak in Denmark

It has 17cm less beam than for example the PA14, so I think I should be fine on a PA14 or similar kayak.

And I dont care if I get splashed a bit on the way to and from the spot, as it is always 35 degrees C (air) and 30-31 degrees C (water), not like the freezing temps I am used to from Denmark and I do plan to make everyting as watertight as possible, so even a roll over should not ruin my day.
I will sleep on it a couple of nights, I have sent several requests for prices on kayaks here, but all retailers seems really slow on the response.

Anybody from the Torqeedo Pro staff that was able to chime in on if it is possible to shorten the shaft on the Cruise 4.0?

Cheers and tight lines

Just sayin if I had that motor just sitting around, I would have it on my boat in a heartbeat, whether I had a PA or a TI.
But then again I'm pretty radical.
Good luck
FE

FE - I dont like having the motor lying around either, so I will go forward with this

Got some prices today, but bad news is that the PA14 is 150.000 thb / 4.300 USD where the Lure 13.5 is only 50.000 thb / 1.430 USD
So right now it looks like I will go forward with the Lure 13.5 (Dont know if that excludes me to continue to share the facts and seek guidance on your forum?)

Looking at tickets to Denmark and planning to go in 2-3 weeks time.
In dialogue on the battery pack and will order within a couple of days.

All going well, I should be able to test the setup around the beginning of June.

Tight lines
Thomas