TI Jib

The Hobie 16 jib/furler is probably a lot like what I have on my Getaway. Basically, the whole forestay rotates by the furler since the forestay is attached to a swivel on the mast. The forestay goes through the luff of the jib and terminates at the jib tack grommet. When the torque is applied at the bottom (on the same grommet), the torque transmits up the wire to the top swivel. Result is that the sail furls pretty well even upwind. I suspect the anti-torque line will do the same thing. Big boats can't do that because the forestay loads are too great for a swivel.

That is "sorta" what I've been suggesting with the addition of a second line to help keep the forestay from stretching too much plus the addition of a tiny piece of flat plate top and bottom of the sail to give the furler some additional opportunity to apply torque. On these little sails the grommets or straps are puny.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

My jib setup is ready for another test on the water. I basically did what you recommended, tpdavis. I cut off the PVC mast and the sail furls ALMOST as good as it did with the mast.



Here is my furler and how I attached the tack of the sail.



And here is the open sail.



Now I just need to find time to try it on the water!

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-- Chad | 2014 TI

Nicely done! That bow reinforcement looks great too. That should solve any front hatch issues! Bet you could add a bowsprit easily now if you wanted.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

Thanks Greg! The only thing that I don't like about the brace, is that it makes it hard to hook the hatch bungees when securing the hatch. I might have to come up with something for that. Yeah, a bowsprit should be pretty easy to add. If I ever decide to add a spinnaker, the boat will be ready for it!

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-- Chad | 2014 TI

If you decide on a sprit, if you aren't going to whisker or bob stay it (ie, unsupported out there) the rule of thumb for thick walled aluminum tube (1/8" thick or better), is 2:1, for every 1 foot unsupported, you need 2 feet supported.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

Yo Chadbach,

Love your setup! It's inspiring me greatly!

You might take a look at http://muggyweld.com/alloy-5 for fabbing up your bowsprit. This technology brings aluminum welding down to everyman, just a suggestion.

now to work up a design that would just push outside and under the front aka mount, drop over the clete, and retain with a simple snap for 0 hull modification, and extend a bowsprit out a tad.... brilliant!

/Robin

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/Robin
2016 TI Hibiscus
Amish spray skirts/trampolines
Northern Tool 4X48 utility trailer (modified)

Thanks RobinNMaid!
Have you tried the muggyweld? That seems like some cool stuff! I keep thinking how I wish my bow brace was all welded together.

I used 1-3/4" u-bolts to attach to the aka brace. For the front, I unscrewed and removed the bow pad eye, then used those screw holes to bolt down an aluminum plate that the square aluminum tube bolts to. It isn't quickly removable but it didn't require any modifications to the boat.

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-- Chad | 2014 TI

So I got to test out the jib today on the water. My first issue was that I had a hard time un-furling the sail. I had to shake and pull, to get it to come out. It worked fine during my driveway tests, so I'm not really sure what's going on there. The sail shape was MUCH better than it was with the PVC mast. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test it for too long. One of the joints on my furler popped loose because I didn't glue it well enough. Also both of my cheap cleats that I was using for the jib sheets ended up breaking. So after a few repairs and mounting some real cleats, I'll give it another try.

After adding a jib, I've also noticed that it's a pain to keep all of the new lines organized. A lot of this is probably due to the cleats I'm using, they're the inline style and aren't bolted to the boat. What are you guys doing to keep everything organized?

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-- Chad | 2014 TI

Chad,

Your setup looks much like mine. I cheated and used a commercial furler, and got professional help with my mast topper. But you are experiencing many of the the same things I did.

I used cheap stuff too... at first. The cheap stuff didn't work for me either. As things happened, I replaced with better stuff.

Here is a video that explains and shows some of the stuff I have done, including the difficult to furl problem.


On my boat I have a wire from the bow to the mast topper (my jib/genoa came that way). It is attached to the furling mechanism at the bow and its companion piece at the top that allows it to spin. That piece is attached to the halyard which I adjust using a cam cleat. So essentially from the bow it is essentially two lines joined near the mast topper to form one continuous line. I have no fore stays... I am guessing yours may be similar.

Hard to furl? In short, on my TI, to furl the foresail, the tighter the halyard and therefore the tighter the luff line the easier it spins. If the wire from the bow to the mast topper is straight or close it furls like a champ. If the wire is loose and therefore there has a bend, it is much more difficult to furl. This is demonstrated in the video. For the mainsail, it is the opposite. The if the jib halyard is tight causing a bit of a bend in the mainsail mast, it doesn't like to furl. So, loosening the jib halyard should make the mainsail furl much more easily. Tightening the jib halyard helps the jib spin.

Line management: I am still working on that too. I use and adjust least 4 extra lines (halyard, furler, jib left, jib right). That doesn't include side stays or lines I use when I am on a run. So a significant increase for sure.

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib

I understand this topic is named "TI Jib" but please let's speak also about the AI Jib.
in more detail i would like to see simpler solutions for the AI because there is not the need to control the sail from the rear seat.there is also the advantage of the longer space from the mast to the bow.
Honestly in order to keep it simple I am ready to bend to the front bar everytime i have to tack and manually furl the jib or just manage it. No autotacking cause it requires more lines. Not that terrible aluminium bow reinforcement. Not a bowsprit to add also a spi. Of course i respect the one who like to transfor their boats in that way but my goal is: simple or nothing. maybe i could add two lateral halyards if it is really needed.

Mark:
Nice video, I suspect once you settle into one configuration that you will end up using 90% of the time if your like me, you will abandon 1/2 of the excess lines and should be able to simplify based on what you use the most.
In my case thats the front seat, as I feel trapped in the back (can't hike out and the back is wetter without the tramps and spray skirts surrounding me). And that sail control line bugs the heck out of me trying to chop my head off.
I did make a set of rear spray skirts, but ended up only using them twice, I'm sure they are laying around in my garage somewhere still. Actually I have a bunch of stuff like that, where I made it, tested it out, but abandoned, usually because it's so seldom used, or a total PIA.
Since I like to peddle 100% of the time (for exercise), I typically am in the front seat with my eclipse flow 90 mirage mirage drive fins(which I love).
Typically I only hike out on really long coastal runs like going up to Egmont key which is 20 miles one way. Usually in a steady wind so I basically set most everything up, then scurry out on the tramp with just the main control line, and hiking stick. All the jib lines, furlers, engine throttle controls, etc are all locked. If I want to adjust anything I scurry back into the cockpit. Also keep in mind my fastest/best point of sail is almost directly into the wind, so I don't recall the last time I've ever had to tack at all so I don't have much to do, lol all my gps tracks are straight lines (just watching any of my boring videos attests to that), the downside to tri-power hybrid rigs (incredibly boring).
Same with sailing in the back seat, if I need to furl or operate the center board, I have to climb up front. I call it rigging and cleaning up. What I do is launch with no sails, get clear of the harbor, while sitting in the front. Once clear, I rig all the sails for the day, whatever I plan to use, then sail all day, maybe from the front, sometimes in the back (a nice feature on these boats). Then at the end of the day I pull up just outside the harbor, point onto the wind and clean up. Basically climb into the front, furl all the sails, remove the mirage drive, raise the center board, etc then go in.
Before widening my boat, if the wind picked up, I would have to scurry into the front seat to furl the main in a couple turns, or risk capsize with my big sailsets. After widening the boat, there is no capsize risk, so I seldom furl the main anymore. But keep in mind, because of my bad back, I seldom go out in winds over 8 mph so my situation is a little different from most everyone else.
Bottom line, the only thing I have that's not the stock setup is a single control line for the wing jib, thats it. (I also use the rudder up cleat by the mesh pocket to cleat my jib control line, very handy).

I guess you can describe what I do as lame sailing, the boat is specifically rigged for little to no natural wind (I make my own wind). Of course the boat itself can handle pretty much anything you throw at it, but physically I can't anymore. 90% of the times I go out on weekends, the typical conditions are 3-7 mph winds, so the boat is specifically rigged for those conditions so I can maintain my preferred 8-10 mph cruise speeds. In the hot Florida sun if you don't have a 15-20 mph breeze on your face, you fry out in the sun (first hand experience here (I've had heat exhaustion a few times out on the water)), especially on those light wind days peddling at 2mph (makes for a really long day if you have to cover 15 miles).

I really like your setup
FE

Actually the AI is way easier to rig with a jib. People have been doing it for many years. What most do is just get a Hobie kayak sail, add a pvc furler, then clip it on the bow, easy peazy. The size is nearly perfect for the AI IMO, but I don't own one and have never sailed an AI, just describing what I've seen.
Now Hobie has made it even easier, because you can buy their mast topper separately instead of having to make your own.
I haven't seen it done yet, but I wouldn't think it would be a big stretch to have both their spinnaker kit, and a hobie kayak sail running off the same halyard. When not using the jib, it would just lay down along the left side of the boat with the spin and snuffer running on the right side. Of course you have to transfer the halyard clip manually, but you would never run the jib and the spin at the same time anyway (different purpose sails).
All way easier and more straight forward than the TI.
One thing I have noticed though, many have added jibs to AI's, use them for a while, then abandom them, because they prefer the simplicity and fast rigging of the basic boat. And most only take their boats out in 10mph winds or better, from that point an up, most feel they don't need any more sail than just the basic furlable main.
I suspect it's just guys like me who only ever go out in winds 3-7 mph, that need all the extra crap.

I also think the people using the AI's are serious expedition people or extreme fishermen (the worlds elite top game offshore fishermen). Pretty specific use.
Where the TI is more of a family fun boat, where you more likely to just have a family of 4 using the boat as their only boat ( that's what we use ours for). We only added the extras because we got bored peddling at 2mph with the whole family on board.
I think that's it in a nutshell.
FE

This is so true. My recent frustratrations with pointing resurfaced yesterday as I sailed with a friend who has an AI2. As winds picked up to 10 mph, my jib began to be a liability as his boat obviously pointed higher and he was getting to mark faster. I took down the jib and discovered I was then pointing nearly as well as he was. Good argument for upgrading to a AI2 vs adding a jib. I have found that the spinnaker works quite well upwind in light winds and will post a video when I get a chance. So the spinnaker may be all that's needed to fill the light wind gap and keep the boat moving. The spinnaker is not meant to be used this way so do so at your own risk and realize you can damage the boat if you don't use good judgment.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

HokMark,
Yep, my setup is very similar to yours, a lot of my ideas came from your videos (as well as every post on this forum about adding a jib)! I may, eventually, even try your side stays. Thanks for the tip on furling the jib. I've been keeping the halyard pretty snug and the sail furls pretty good, my problem is getting it to UN-furl. Have you experienced any issues in getting the sail to come out? I'm not really sure what's snagging it. It worked fine during my driveway tests, but on the water I had to give it a good shake and pull on the jib sheet pretty hard to get the sail to un-furl. Maybe halyard tension also affects un-furling?



I'm starting to agree with this as well! The jib definitely complicates things, but it is fun to play with during light winds, when otherwise it would be kind of boring. I haven't yet had a lot of experience with the jib, but it seems like it's actually hurting the ability to point. On points of sail other than close hauled, I do feel the extra power though.

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-- Chad | 2014 TI

You are very correct. All the options in the video are WAY TOO COMPLICATED. When I did this video, I didn't know how I was going to be sailing the boat. The whole jib thing was brand new to me. Like you, I normally use the front seat. When the wind pics up, I move out the the haka. I now have extra rigging time needed for the jib down to 5-10 minutes and doing so quite quickly returns the extra time spent in distance traveled, especially in lighter winds. So, on a normal day, I am guessing the jib will be a regular.

I imagine for Hobie's mast topper work for use with a jib, you would also need to use the back-stay. One could probably even rig up side support lines to reduce mast lean. I am tempted to get one to play with it. But... furling the main in order to tack I think would get old.

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...mark...

Enjoying a 2012 TI
w/ hakas, a stainless steel
mast topper & furling jib