Lol the reason I don't sit in the back seat is because when in the back seat I'm always sitting in 6 inches of water. The front seat stays dry.
Well.. reality check.. that is so far off from my experience. sitting in 6 inches??? 2015 TI with the different seats but sailing from the back seat is much drier than the front seat. That front hatch also stays out of the water when sailed from the back seat. I used to have an AI and had to seal the front hatch for long higher wind down wind sailing because the bow would submarine so often punching through waves. The TI sailed from the back seat is the master at high wind down wind runs. Any time I have any issue at all with water in the TI is when I sail it with two people.
Thank you for all the advice, think I should be able to develop a solution. Noticed how the TI was flexing while underway. Will be adding bouancy and will add a bilge pump, now just to seal the hatches. Definitely remove the round hatches and apply a sealant that flexes, an easy job that will not take long. Will use the yoga mat and a bag over the hatch and lube the round hatch seals. Now just the rudder spectra holes! My one seal has come loose and the spectra has worn a groove in it. Difficult to replace but must admit minimal water ingress but even minimal water adds up over a long period. Normally spend at least 6 hours at sea. like the idea of an electric motor. Does that price include the battery? Nice to be moving in silence and a benefit when chasing spooky fish on the surface! Paid 650 dollars for the Suzuki brand new.
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am Posts: 2893 Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Just a few comments.
I suspect that there is not a high percentage of users complaining of leaking hatches... Hobie has a proven record of fixing problems which are widespread, without being asked. I have only had the odd occasion of leaking front hatch, and only when I have been sailing with the whole front of my TI back to the mast consistently under water. On those occasions, I found just a few litres inside the hull. My sub $10 fix of a yoga mat solved the problem. so I certainly won't bother my dealer about it. I don't believe there is a culture of blind loyalty to Hobie involved....
I accept that my TI has stuff-all freeboard, so I never open any hatches at sea. I keep my anchoring gear and my emergency gear (flares, first aid, torches, compass, PLB etc) in separate dry bags, and true to their name, they keep the contents dry. I have them tied to the crossbar behind my seat (or behind the passenger if carrying one. I therefore don't need to open any hatches...
I also regularly clean sand and grit out of the openings of the 8" circular hatches, and clean the O rings with silicone spray to ensure that all hatches bed down properly when secured. If the O ring stretches (they do over time), I cut them, and then slice a fraction off (start with about 1/4") and rejoin the ends with superglue. This (or maybe a further slice) will see the O ring sitting nicely in its groove, and able to do its job. I have only needed to do this once with my well-used 2012 TI.
_________________ Tony Stott 2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker
I suspect that there is not a high percentage of users complaining of leaking hatches...
Tony, Seriously?!? In this forum alone, which probably represents only a tiny fraction of all TI owners, there are hundreds and hundreds of posts concerning the leaking front hatch over the course of many years. Below is just a small sample I quickly grabbed to make the point, just search on "leak" or "front hatch" and you can see all the others for yourself.
This has been going on since the TI was designed, and to the best of my knowledge it has not yet been resolved. Having my Hobie dealer tell me it was "normal" and could not be fixed under warranty was the last straw for me. I'm very tired of emptying my nearly new 2015 TI of gallons and gallons of water almost every time I go out. It's just not right and this issue should be professionally resolved by Hobie, not by me with garbage bags and yoga mats. I didn't spend well over six grand for a very leaky boat that I'm forced to try to kludge repair myself while its still under warranty.
My opinion only. If any of you are perfectly content to let Hobie continue to sidestep this issue then you are either easily placated or are not experiencing the problem.
greshamrl wrote:
I just received my new 2015 Hobie TI. I have taken it out two times in mild-to-moderate seas and it fills with water over 5 gallons of water in my kayak each time. More like ten gallons of water last week. The dealer came over to my house and we pewrformed a pressure test to diagnose the leak and the front hatch is the problem. Looks like a design problem to me. There is no seal as it leaves the factory. This is unacceptable and want to know who else is experienceing problems with the crtappt forward hatch design!!!!
Why should we have to repair the forward hatch. Hobie made the leaking thing. Looks like some do not leak. Come Hobie! What are you going to do!
Kal-P-Dal wrote:
This thread is about a leaking TI. Maybe the front hatch, maybe something else. First step is allways to find the leak. All actions depends on where the leak is located.
CE-class or wheather has nothing to do with this. There is no reason to accept non-located leaks. No matter the size of the leak. Big leaks has to be located and fixed, small leaks has at least to be located. Then it is up you if you can accept the smaller leaks or not.
If you want to go offshore, you better do that in a boat that you know is well prepared for the task. I have fixed my big leak and located my small leaks and I will secure that the front hatch can't move. I don't accept water inside the hull and also stuff everything in watertight bags. After several hours in rough conditions you need to get warm and dry. Even hypotermia can kill you. If weather changes while you are offshore - you will end up in condtions you don't like, longer than you like.
best regards thomas
scc wrote:
fusioneng wrote:
I have owned 3 TI's now and all the front hatches leak some but 5-10 gallons is excessive. Normal in my boats anyway is a couple cups in light seas, and maybe as much as a gallon in rough seas (hot dogging). I find the front hatch not to be the only entry point, small amounts come in the round hatches and the rear rudder line tubes.
Having a bit of water entry as well. Would a gallon in an hour of 12-15 kt winds and 2-3 foot chop with multiple bow submersions be considered normal?
Thanks,
scc
scc wrote:
Well I underestimated my leak. I had my GoPro on when I stopped for lunch at Angel Island (SF Bay) on Saturday. I caught the bilge pump out on video https://youtu.be/lWLqx5DC0MA and counted around 90 strokes with a Seattle Sports bilge pump. This was after a 1-1/2 hr 5 NM sail in 12 kt wind and 2-3 ft chop. Today, I measured each full cycle of the pump at 16 oz. when the end of the pump is full submerged. Granted, the end of the pump was not completely submerged in the video, but even at 25% efficiency, I estimate that I pumped around three gallons.
I'll fill the hull next to try to locate any breech.
stringy wrote:
Our 2010 TI always had water in the hull after a decent sail. It was coming in from two places: 1) -the forward hatch bungee holders (both starboard screwed fittings had threads that had been cut all the way through the plastic hull and any water that hit the fitting went straight into the hull) 2)- the seal between the hatch cover and hatch (the seals were a poor fit made worse by the hull flexing) The bungee fitting leak was fixed by coating the threads in marine sealant and refitting. The hatch leak was fixed by fitting a nylon spray cover.
The following was previously posted in another thread but as it is relevant to this issue I've reposted it here:
The TI does suffer from more flexing/oil canning than the AI, probably due to the larger volume of the hull. There are places on the AI that I can kneel on with no hull distortion yet on the TI those same positions cause significant distortion. I don't consider this a safety issue though as flexing is a long way from actual hull breaching.
In this short clip the bow hatch opening flexing can be clearly seen.
This was the source of water ingress that was fixed by adding a simple spray cover, seen in the pics below.
On my to do list is a reinforcement on the inside of the hatch lip that would strengthen it and stop the lip bending inwards, which creates a gap between the hatch seals and the inflexible hatch lid. The spray cover stopped virtually all the water getting in so I haven't bothered with the reinforcement.
SWilderman wrote:
Dear Hobie....specifically Matt Miller (Director of Parts and Accessory Sales)
We purchased a new 2015 TI in April and absolutely love the kayak.........however, after taking it out a few times we noticed it was taking on water in the hull. We contacted our dealer and he gave us several things to check out. Long story short, he ended up coming and getting it from us and putting in his pool to determine where the leak was coming from. He found small leak and thought he was able to fix the problem. It did not fix the leak and Hobie ended up sending us a new 2015 TI Hull, which we just picked up a few days ago at our dealer's location. Today, we took the new boat out on Kentucky Lake for about 2 1/2 hours with 15-20 mph winds (perfect sailing day). Came off the lake and discovered this hull leaks worse than the original one. I scooped 24 red Solo cups of water out of the hull. I contacted our dealer and he is addressing this issue with Hobie warranty department. As I read through the various forums and comments, it seems as though we are not the only owners experiencing this problem. Needless to say, we are not happy and hope that Hobie contacts us soon with solution. Anyone else still experiencing this leaking hull issue???
coachstevo wrote:
SCC,
Don't bother filling the hull you'll find nothing. Use nohuhus trick of soapy water and a vacuum set on blow. Almost certainly it is the front hatch, with a trickle in from the rudder lines. There's loads of ways to fully seal the front hatch, pipe insulation seems to work pretty good and is cheap. Its so dang choppy hear that I think we experience more hull flexing than other locales., and that flexing is what opens the hatch seal. My opinion of course.
serbi wrote:
Fully agree with Bob (Fusioneng). Apparently all of us have some kind of issues with water intake on the AI / TI. Especially when sailing upwind in medium to high winds waves always go over the bow. On some boats there is hardly any water intake, on others it can lead to a few gallons. Apparently rotomoulded platic boats are "moving" all the time in heavy / wavy seas and the water intake seems to be unavoidable.
For a rather expensive boat from a global company like Hobie the solution cannot and must not be to make some "do it your self" modifactions (like adding additional seals which a few of us have done).
Hobie should "admit" that there are certain limitation on a hull which is rotomoulded and offer a custom made AI / TI "showercap" or plastic insert for the front hull.
Doesn't cost much and surely gives peace of mind to many sailors who go offshore or want to enjoy their boat in " a bit rough but manageable" conditions.
My two cents
peace Serbi
TI_Tom wrote:
mmiller wrote:
We know hatches are difficult to seal completely and sometimes need some additional tuning.
Shouldn't Hobie be doing some sort of QC on these boats during the manufacturing process? I would think that during that process they discovered that the boat didn't seal well then they would toss that hull. Cars get leak tested when they come off of an assembly line, why doesn't the AI/TI? It just sounds like they get popped out of the mold, some fittings screwed on, and they are packed and sent out the door. Has the ramp up in production due to the demand caused less quality boats to be built? I don't have a leaky boat, but QC issues did arise with respect to the steering on my TI.
Kal-P-Dal wrote:
mmiller wrote:
Kal-P-Dal wrote:
I have not seen Hobie admit anything about the leaking front hatch in this forum. The design is what it is.
What is to admit? We know hatches are difficult to seal completely and sometimes need some additional tuning. Especially when being pushed hard and forced under water.
About "What is to admit?" This was just an answer to scc, who had a question for you: "Can you confirm whether the hatch is designed so that the hatch cover seal makes contact with the hull surrounding the hatch lip?" More or less meaning not to expect to much of an answer from Hobie. Some topics are best handled outside this forum as I now understand. This was NOT in anyway intended as critics at all.
About "sometimes need some additional tuning" You must be joking. I took in about 10 gallons of water in a couple of hours. This is a serious matter to me. The work to make the front hatch water tight was no way near "some additional tuning".
I DO criticise Hobie (not you Matt) for the poor job to fit the hull and hatch together and for poor quality assurance to not sort out kayaks that should not reach end user.
For us, that live in far away exotic countries, the looong chain of delivery complicates everything due to diminishing responsibilty and diminishing will to to take costs. (Handling time NOT diminishing!) For us it is a real PIA to get a kayak that really should not have left the production plant.
best regards thomas (happy Hobie end customer with opinions)
mmiller wrote:
To be clear... we have acknowledged (admitted) issues with hatch leaks. Not a secret.
Even looking at this thread, the results vary greatly from dry to leaks. These are both from trimming errors here and other causes. Rest assured, we have been actively chasing the factory to do better at this.
Dealers should be correcting these issues in the field through contact with our warranty department. Harder to help when you are far from help though.
Kal-P-Dal wrote:
mmiller wrote:
If our warranty department is balking at helping... that is a problem I would want to hear about.
Now this is interesting! IF your warranty department is just a BIT reluctant to help... WOULD (??) next in line (Hobie Europe for me) step up and say WE will take the responsibility (and costs) for this issue? I think not. Leaving me fighting with my only friend in this, MY dealer in Sweden.
This was the main reason for me to fix the problem myself. Very glad though, that this seems to concern you Matt!
best regards thomas
greshamrl wrote:
Well Hobie thinks they have solved my leaking forward hatch issue. They sent me another front hatch just like the one that was installed at the factory!!!! This new hatch and seal leaks just as much as the old one. I would say they are not listening to my problem the hatch does not match the hull, two different shapes. The forward hatch needs to be redesigned by those intelligent engineers at Hobie or redesign the hull. RG
Agr8wht wrote:
Dear Hobie,
Respectfully,
I thought I was the proud owner of a 2015 red TI....not sure yet. I thought I did a good job vetting hobie and the reliability and quality control of all their products....including/especially the T.I. (We are new to the Hobie family) We purchased the new TI in Feb/2015. Since the purchase and approximately 12 trips out of Dana Point, California, we have had major leaks from two different areas.....on our brand new 2015 T.I. (did I already mention it was brand new).
Leak #1 The receiver where you slide and lock your sail into was cracked and we discovered serious water entering the hull through this location. We returned our TI to the dealership in Irvine, CA. This was two weeks after we received the new T.I. They did a fantastic job listening to our concerns and returned the TI to Hobie to have them fix the issue. Hobie fixed it.....not quite sure what they did, but it included cutting thru the bottom of the hull to get to the crack then patching/resealing/repairing the appropriate area. Not happy at all that they cut into my new TI. But bottom line ....this is no longer an issue. I honestly felt they should have replaced my new TI with a new one that did not have a crack or a leak in it.
Leak #2. After about 40 minutes of taking constant water over the bow (VERY similar to the pics on this thread) we took on approximately 25 gallons. After the first couple of waves came over the bow I noticed the bow getting heavier and the TI become almost instantly sluggish along with the steering becoming increasingly much more resistant. I decided to turn back...honestly was not sure how safe the return trip would be (I had 8 and 9 year old grandkids with me) It took me a while to figure out that water was coming in thru the bow hatch. I had no idea that was even possible or an issue that Hobie was already aware of and has been aware of for years. I'm truly VERY disappointed that I was not aware of this leaking hatch issue/problem BEFORE purchased the T.I. The dealership/Hobie now has my T.I. and they are addressing the issue....by trying to think of a way to fix the leaky hatch. That's great....but you have known about this issue for years. Again....hoping they simply replace my new 2015 TI (Not repair/patch/reseal) with a safe new 2015 that has been properly inspected. Priority number one for any watercraft new or used.....make sure you have no design flaws that may cause your product to sink.
I have video I would love to attach showing Leak #2 incident.....wondering how to do that?
Other than the two leaks the craft is solid and fun!!!!
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am Posts: 2893 Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
I am not defending Hobie over this issue, but quite clearly, if the overall number of owners experiencing front hatch leaks was proportional to those posting in the forum, they would probably be looking for a different engineering solution( and well might be in the background anyway). I know that they have changed the section of the hatch seals in order to improve things.
I just don't think anyone can assume that there is a huge number of users out there just putting up with severe leaks. I certainly would never expect Hobie to deliver a 100% dry interior, but equally, I would expect Hobie to treat a hull which lets in more than a pint or so as needing fixing under warranty
On re-reading the thread, I have come to the conclusion, that Hobie could resolve this situation (accepting that the design of both Islands leads to a flexible front hatch opening) by supplying the "shower cap" solution as shown by stringy. This would be a quite inexpensive item that could be made available at dealers for little or no cost.
Matt, your thoughts?
_________________ Tony Stott 2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker
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