The Spinnaker Mast Topper was never Flawed

The problem was an over tightened top batton all along. My apologies to Hobie.

I made a mod to the mast topper to deal with the snagging issue others and I were having. I also made a change to the to batton (loosened it). Here is a link to the post describing the changes and pictures included. Look near the bottom of the page.

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=56915&start=270

The snagging problem stopped immediately and compleately following the modifications. Today I removed the modification to the mast topper and guess what? No snags. I tested this in higher winds and at different wind angles. No snags. I bet that all of us who were having problems with the spinnaker snags had a top batton that was secured too tight. When loosened the batton does not flip outward engaging the halyard when furled. Hopefully this can prevent someone else a lot of grief if they are having halyard snags.

The Spinnaker is an huge hit in my book. Worth all the extra lines. You quickly get use to them.

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Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

glad it worked out, just got my tandem a couple of weeks ago and haven't put the reacher(let's call it what it is regardless of what spin the marketeers at hobie lay onto it) on yet. will maybe get to the rigging this evening.

fair winds and a following sea, mick

Greg, thank goodness you have sorted that out! I was sitting here quietly biting my tongue, as my main when furled, shows zero sign of the batten, apart from a miniscule lump where the top of the batten sits just inside the sail. Nevertheless, I intend to leave the piece of pvc (underground watering hose) dangling from the rear of the topper for one reason only... I never want my Windward wind indicator (instead of Hobie's invisible-from-below cellophane flag) to get caught in a loose backstay (it did happen once).

And Nick, I would have thought that a reacher generally has a luff attached to the forestay and be carried forward of the beam, whereas a spinnaker usually flies a free luff and is usually designed for aft of the beam (confirmed by Hobie's own usage diagram in their written instructions) , hence I don't think Hobie is applying spin (in either sense) incorrectly on this occasion.

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Tony Stott
2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker

Greg:
This makes me very happy that you solved the issues with the Hobie spinnakers and mast topper. I knew if enough clever guys were using it they would get the kinks worked out quickly.
As everybody knows I've been running a similar setup for 5-6 yrs now with a slightly different design without any major issues. Since I don't have a Hobie spinnaker or furler and won't likely be getting one (I can't afford it, besides thereis nothing wrong with my current setup, so there is no need to replace it).
I was only trying to help with possible suggestions and remedy's based on my own experience, but with my system working fundimentally different I couldn't be of much help.
The mast topper is the key that opens the lock to the true potential of the Island boats. Now you can easily add any sail arrangement you need to suit the conditions you encounter without losing all the other benefits of these fantastic boats.
Whats really cool is you can still strip all that stuff off and use the boat as the best and fastest kayak Hobie offers. You can leave the extras (spinnakers, jib, motors, etc) off and still use the basic boat. But once you realize the massive capabilities with all that stuff if your like me you will never go out without the extras. I sailed my first TI twice with just the stock boat a really long time ago (2010) and have never taken it out since without the extras installed. As far as I know my TI is the only car toppable complex boat out there, I would like to see someone do that with a Windrider 17 or even a Weta (car top)
Sure it takes me 5 more minutes to rig vs a stock TI, but it has always been worth the little extra effort to me anyway. In low winds 3-6mph winds I much prefer going 8-10 mph vs 2-3 mph. And in higher winds I much prefer 12-15 mph vs 6-8 but thats just me, however my body can't take the big offshore stuff in heavier winds and seas so much anymore.

However when we were at lake Hartwell last month we had a couple days of 20-25 mph winds, I went out in that a few times but was kicking myself for not bringing my spinnaker along on the vacation (I left it hanging in the garage at home), thinking I'm gonna be on a lake, why would anyone need a spin on a lake, who knew the dang lake was 40 miles long (lol). But I did pay a huge price in back pain that is just getting better now.

Thats kind of the point of the extras, if I had a stock TI I would have been able to cover and explore maybe 3-5 miles of the lake, with the extras I easily covered and explored 20 miles.
Now you guys have the key ( a mast topper that works), the sky is the limit.
Hope to see more super TI's out there now ( finally)
Good job
FE

Don't mean to take the wind out of your sails, FE, but my Triak is car toppable and as complex as a sailboat gets with spnnaker, jib and mainsail. Sure, you put engines on yours and I don't have a mirage drive, but I'm 20 minutes or less from car top to sailing with 6 T handle bolts to the entire assembly. Of course, our sailing conditions are very different, I have current and 20 kt winds nearly all the time, while you have light breeze and the Gulf stream to contend with...different boats for different things.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

Could not agree more. I added two snuffing holes/patches to my jib and now make a decision to bring one or the other sail using the spinnaker chute to snuff whichever sail I choose that day. This has reduced the lines on my boat and simplified sailing with multiple sails.

The spinnaker is now my preferred UPWIND sail in light and moderate winds, not the jib or main (except when close hauled). I typically sail the main with the spinnaker though. That means the jib is now only getting used in higher winds when the spinnaker is too much sail for the mast. But then, the main is really enough by itself in that situation. So there is no real need for both spin and jib on the boat at the same time. When close hauled, for me, no sail points better than the main by itself.

It looks like Hobie knew what they were doing when they chose the sail types that they did. I experimented and tried to improve on them but the Hobie sails are coming out as the big winners.

_________________
Greg

2016 AI - Spinn & Jib

“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.”
– Charles G. Davis

Yea I've seen quite a few of those triaks around here, nice boats, but I need seating for 4-6, our's is our only family boat now, we sold our Sea Ray. We also use it quite a bit for scuba diving off shore off key west (well not so much this year so far unfortunately).
FE

• At what wind speed do you need to put in the first reef? .... My AI2 wants about 1 turn of reef once the wind average gets into the low twenties (mph-wise).... which is just about 20 kts.
  .
• What is your max speed in 20 kt winds?

Couple days ago I put a stopwatch on my AI2 rigging time and got 19:42.

That's starting the timer while the boat is on the trailer in a parking lot, and stopping it when the boat is half in the water rigged and ready to sail.... and not hurrying or anything. Only one trampoline.... not two.

But, to me, the cartop part is a beeeeeeg deal....

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

I must have been doing something *really* wrong with my own SpinKit because I get scared just thinking of having the spinnaker deployed in 20-25 mph winds where I am flirting with hull speed (10-11 mph with some 12) most of the time and am in control only by virtue of reefing the main.

If nothing else, I would be afraid of those skinny little sheet lines and/or the really-skinny halyard injuring my hands in that kind of wind.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]

As manufactured, the Triak needs to reef at 10 kts of wind...there just isn't enough float in the floats. So I made bigger floats that can handle the winds I see. Top end (speed) is around 11 kts. The hull is a displacement hull and can't be driven any faster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0beCHLthWSs shows me pushing the boat about as much as possible.

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R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

Pete:
I'm pretty sure Hobie doesn't want anyone using their Spinnaker in anything over 12-15 mph winds. I'm absolutely not recommending anyone try it.
There are a huge number of tricks involved any many re-enforcements required to the boat itself, before even attempting crap like this.
My TI has a re-enforced bow and a 2ft bowsprit that angles all my foresails just enough to create lift to keep the bow from diving. On a strong downwind because the main is mounted so far forward the bow dives underwater and stays under (talkin about a wet ride). The very bottom of the mast holder inside the hull is too weak, you have to design around that. The floppy mast is not designed to take that much load and will likely snap (expensive). The only thing preventing the mast from snapping is the rear stay line and your main control line. You pretty much need to have your main pulled tight and cleated (or else you snap the mast (this is pretty common with spinnakers on other boats as well)
It's kinda hard to deploy a big spin from a snuffer without exploding it in really high winds ( the sudden pop like a parachute blows the center of the sail out (that has happened to me a few times even with furlers).
Also keep in mind any water force over around 15mph hitting the AMA's (ie boat wakes, chop, waves) will sheer your AKA sheer bolts as if they aren't there.
Once you get near 20 mph you have to be really careful and gentle with the rudder. Any sudden movement of the rudder, like cranking hard left or right, snaps the rudder pin and the rudder literally flies up into the air.
When the boat is pushed really hard you really have to make sure the bow is completely out of the water (6-10 inches is pretty safe in chop (2-3 ft), the angled foresails really help with that.
Another thing to worry about is the scupper holes becoming drinking fountains. And the entire back half of the boat fills completely with water, not very fun for back seaters.
A planing hull mod to the hull (getting rid of the pointed back end) really helps you get on a plane, otherwise the entire stern is underwater at those speeds, and creates a great deal of drag.
The biggest danger though is pitchpoling the boat when going over boat wakes or any sequenced waves. You typically plow over the first, hit the second on top, then dive under the third, the bow dives about 3-4 ft and you go from 20 to zero in one second flat, I've pitchpoled 6 times now, everytime the AKA sheer bolts got sheered, and I would have to make repairs, and some pretty heavy damage on a few occasions.
I'm just describing all the stuff that has happened to me.
The boat is just not designed for extreme sailing. I don't do that stuff much anymore.
FE

Gee, I didn't know the ti was that fragile. My friend was thinking of getting one, but if it'll break in the 20 kts and chop we normally see in summer...

_________________
R/Thom
SeaRail 19
Triak
BMW C600
Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers
Formerly raced F24 Mk II

Tpdavis 473
I never said that, people take their stock TI's out in those conditions all the time.
I wasn't talking about wind speed, I was talking about GPS ground speed (huge difference).
The boat was never designed for massive sailsets, giant outboards, or hydrofoiling. That's all on me, I was just describing what happens when you do all that stuff that Hobie absolutely doesn't support. Sharing all the potential failure points I've experienced over the last 6 yrs of owning TI's, pushing way beyond the intended design spec's and knowing where the failures will occur I thought would be useful to others. Otherwise ignorance is bliss.
FE

The stock TI/AI/AI 2 is plenty tough. The only weakness on the AI 2 is the aka brace pin which may break at top speeds. It is a consequence of Hobies "one size fits all."

Keith

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2015 AI 2, 2014 Tandem

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

"Less is more" Anon

Well, that pretty much shoots down my little theory that making the AI hull 8 inches narrower would increase it's top end. ..... Easier paddling - probably.... but no higher max sailing speed.

_________________
2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]