Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm Posts: 780 Location: Houston, TX
I am in the process of teaching my daughter how to start and run a business of her own. If there was enough interest, her product could be after market headsails such as jibs etc. What would be unique about these headsails is that they would be designed to be snuffable. They would be used with and compliment the current Hobie Spinnaker rigging. No further modification of the boat would be necessary. Simply quick switch sails on the fly using SS spring carabiners. The material would be a light weight such as Code0 material so that it can be snuffed and would come with snuffing patches. They would be computer designed by an experienced sail maker for the year and make of your particular island.. The idea is to buy in bulk and to sell for less than it would cost for someone to buy a single sail from the same sailmaker.
We could also look into fabricating and selling a bow reinforcement for TI's in particular. This way both TI's and AI's owners could enjoy the use of headsails.
I know this is a very narow market and no one would be getting rich, but the goal is just to help my daughter learn the businss process. If there happens to be a bigger market, then this might explore it. The first step is to find out if there is nterest. Any interest out there?
_________________ Greg
2016 AI - Spinn & Jib
“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.” – Charles G. Davis
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm Posts: 780 Location: Houston, TX
We are finding from most people that have added jibs to islands that it adds to speed but you acually will loose a few degrees of pointing. In those cases simply snuff the jib and point away. I found that using a jib with the Hobie Spinnaker rigging allows you to tension the jib better so you sacrifice less pointing.
If there was enough demand, the sailmaker can modify the sail to make it point better, but at the expense of power. We could look into that but I don't have experience with that jib.
_________________ Greg
2016 AI - Spinn & Jib
“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.” – Charles G. Davis
Last edited by vetgam on Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm Posts: 2763 Location: High Point, NC
What I'm about to say isn't meant to discourage your effort, but I want to put it out there as something to think about.
Last Friday I spent an evening with Jim Brown, a rather noted multi-hull sailboat designer. One of things that crept up during the conversation was the endeavor by many boat owners to change sail plans on their boats. Jim was quick to confirm what many of us already know - that boats and sail plans are generally designed around each other and if you change one thing, you must then change everything else. This isn't meant to say that you can't gain something by adding more sail or a different sail without making other alterations to the rest of the boat, but in this case it is more than likely likely some performance aspect or characteristic of the boat is then going to change in some way.
I do wish you well with your project in any regard.
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm Posts: 780 Location: Houston, TX
Tom I hear you and agree completely.. My first post before adding my jib was about concern over potential lee helm. I'm sure I've had to have changed the balance some but I can't notice it at all when sailing. All I noticed was added speed and more enjoyment. Any sails sold would have to be time tested on the island model it's intended to used on.
The risk of throwing off the balance is likely greater with the TI. That sail has not been put to the test and could noT be sold yet. The AI jib would be immediately available.
It's always possible that the added forces might damage parts in time. That hasn't been the case though. After almost 2 years, nothing has broken except one rudder pin. That had more to do with me turning the rudder sharply at speed. I'm testing bigger sails now but would not consider selling them for at least a year if ever. They may present more of a balance issue aND strain for the boat. Time will tell.
_________________ Greg
2016 AI - Spinn & Jib
“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.” – Charles G. Davis
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm Posts: 984 Location: Benicia, CA
If you want to see if there is sufficient interest, I suggest starting a crowdfunding campaign. My nephew created "fix it stix" which was aimed at bicyclists and he's gone on to do several more crowdfunded campaigns through kickstarter and now teaches a class in Wisconsin in "how to..."
Personally, I wouldn't recommend sailmaking. It is very labor intensive and code zero fabric is pretty pricey. Also, if there remains such a thing as "rugged individualists" in the USA, sailors comprise a good number of them.
_________________ R/Thom SeaRail 19 Triak BMW C600 Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers Formerly raced F24 Mk II
Hi vetgam,wishing you and your daughter good luck with your new venture.A good friend and I were discussing the pros and cons of headsails a few days ago.One point we seemed to agree on was this-The faster you make a boat go by using headsails,the lower the stress on the boat and gear because of the lower differential in wind speed between the faster boat and the wind at any given time.My experience over the years has shown that using headsails on most multihulls improves overall handling and performance considerably.This is especially true when using a furling or snuffable sail. I hope this helps your cause.
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:58 am Posts: 2893 Location: Forster, NSW, Australia
Unfortunately Viking, you and your friend are mistaken except in downwind sailing. Going upwind, every extra knot you make INCREASES the wind the sails feel. Of course, as you cannot sail directly into the wind, but at an angle, it is not quite 1 to 1 (my trigonometry skills stayed with school over fifty years ago
_________________ Tony Stott 2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker
I'm surprised someone has not done it already. I've seen many companies thrive producing niche products, in fact it's one of the few markets still open to very small companies. I'll watch this with great interest.
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Unfortunately there is a lot of mis-information and conflicting views about jibs out there with TI's, and I don't think many trust any of it, as a result I doubt very much you will sell many, just too many naysayers out there. The TI's are really unique boats and if you try to fit them into the category of any conventional sailboat you will be sadly disappointed. Conventional sailingwise a laser, sunfish, or any cat will run circles around a TI. If you want to sail that way I don't recommend getting a TI. However because of the mirage drive (which 90% of the users remove when sailing for some strange reason) you have an actually more versatile boat if your willing to peddle a little (most aren't). Anyone can do this, just mount a jib on the front (even a hobie kayak sail will suffice), now pull straight into the wind in any winds 10-20 mph. Pull the jib as tight as possible, and open the mainsail out all the way and pull it tight as possible. Now start peddling, as you speed up turn just slightly into the wind (keep those sails tight), keep peddling, once the sails catch once you hit around 15-20 degrees off the wind the boat accelerates and you can easily sail almost straight upwind at a pretty good clip (4-5 mph in lighter winds, and a little faster in heavier winds). This is an un-natural sailing condition, as long as you keep peddling you can maintain your forward motion with a fantastic VMG. Sure you can sail regular with no mirage drive pointing around 50 degrees off the wind and tack back and forth, yea your sailing at 6-8 mph, but your VMG sucks donky dirt, and in a strong current can actually be negative (blowing you out to sea). You have to maintain control of the boat of course, and if you turn sideways to the wind with 120 sq ft of tight sail showing, you will go over. You don't have to be superman peddling, just a steady rate, it's even better on a TI with two peddlers. I know of no other boat that can do this. Now lets take it to the next level, by adding just a tiny bit of supplimental propulsion, you don't need a lot, a small Honda, or a Torqeedo 403 will do just fine. Of course you still have to peddle, you can never get away from that.... If your athletic you don't need the supplimental propulsion at all, but in my case I'm not so athletic so I run out of energy after a mile or two, so I add a little supplimental propulsion (around 1 hp) so I can maintain speed within my own physical ability range for around 10 hrs. This is unique to the TI, what is occurring is the jib is aligning and organizing the apparent wind and forcing the main to work, where otherwise it would not be providing any propulsion. This slot effect ( I think that's what it's called) also works quite well downwind. If you watch any of my hundreds of boring videos, it's difficult to see if I am going upwind or downwind because my sails are in the same exact positions. Actually downwind you are typically sailing faster the the wind, and you are redirecting the apparent wind jibing downwind with the wind around 30 degrees off your stern, your jib is able to align the air and force it over the main. Yes this all still works with a single sheet jib, I've been sailing that way for 6 yrs now. About 3 yrs ago I improved on the design by introducing a 6 inch thick wing jib which directs the airflow much better, and has double the power of a conventional jib of the same sq footage (actually my 33sq ft wing jib has nearly equal power to my 90 sq ft main in 10 mph winds and up). My best points of sail are upwind and downwind, and absolute worst point of sail is a broad reach, so I avoid sailing on a reach like the plague. The boat is mostly tuned for winds under 7 mph, but works quite well in winds up to 25 mph. I'm just stating these boats are an engineering wonderment like nothing else on the water for those who want to delve into the boats true capabilities, you can do things no other boat on the planet can do once you clear your mind of all the conventional sailing nonsense (2000 yr old knowledge) and start with a clean slate. If you planning to start a business, you might look into exploiting the boats unique tri-power design capabilities making it bar none the most unique and capable boat out there today. I strongly feel this stuff is the future of boating. Here is a boring video explaining quite a bit of it, but they totally missed the mark, and didn't realize the true potential of this accidental design (using all three power sources at the same time), which is what it is really about. I'm just sain this is worth millions to whomever wraps their mind around this, and gets us out of the dark ages and changes sailing forever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=241QmxFcbuc
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm Posts: 15089 Location: Oceanside, California
As some here know... the TI was intended to have an accessory jib. Early boats had an attachment point for the forestay sewn to the sail. Amas had shroud attachment eyes. We opted not to do a headsail due to damage to the bow structure of a TI during extensive testing. The load between bow and mast attachment can be extreme. The bow has a sort-of crease at the hatch area where it could fold if over stressed. The additional compression on the mast and complexity of the rig were also contributing factors. We felt the main had to still be able to furl easily (as it does with the spinnaker kit now). We also considered that off the wind performance was most desirable. Up wind was already quite good. Spinnakers excel in off the wind sailing angles.
_________________ Matt Miller Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales Warranty and Technical Support Hobie Cat USA (Retired 11/7/2022)
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:20 pm Posts: 146 Location: Pula - Sardinia
I am interested. I can add that in my opinion extra sails, if not used properly, can create probems such as capsizing or damages.
A well known producer as Hobie cannot risk that, even with improper use, bad news about incidents or damages will spread and weaken the fame of brand. for them it's not worth to take this risk.
But if you are a careful and wise user who will furl the extra sail and not looking for a new speed record, u will have to accept the limits of this conservative strategy or, as many other did, u can build your own improvements. in this wide are I think there is a space for your daughter's business. she will not be "hobie" (though must be careful at what she does) and users as me who dont have a special skill in homemaking can have the chance to buy useful improvements at affordable prices. for this reason my suggestion is "go on with your project and good luck"
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