Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm Posts: 780 Location: Houston, TX
Thanks. Tpdavis473 made a comment about sailors being rugged individualists and this so true. Many will choose to make all there own boat modifications. But I know and have talked to many that don't have the time, equipment, desire but can afford to cut to the chase and just buy a quality finished product. This is the market we would need to go after using quality materials with true craftsmanship is what is going to interest this group.
A quality jib that can be snuffed costs about $400 which I was happy to pay. If the material is cheaper it will not hold up over time(personal experience), perform or it will be too stiff/brittle a material to snuff. Snuffing jibs that designed to fit our boats can not be found commercially anywhere that I an aware of. So these are not really anything most of us would have reason to make. We plan to have a professional sailmaker do the job and market these accordingling.
As we approach some of the metal and plastic fabricators here in Houston we hope to explore some some other items like bow reinforments and lightweight hakas with smooth edges designed with the extra sails in mind. Our goal would always be to stay as competitive priced was possile but to have something built that we could not duplicate ourselves very easily and demonstrates quality. Otherwise the do it youselfers like myself would rather make our own. Just my initial thoughts. Interested in how utters feel about quality vs price.
_________________ Greg
2016 AI - Spinn & Jib
“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.” – Charles G. Davis
One caution.. figure out if you need liability insurance or not. What is the risk, what do you have to lose. You may have the protection of a corporation but what happens if you want to sell the business..
If you decide you do want/need liability insurance, make sure it fits in with the whole plan. You may find out the only one who would make any money is the insurance company.. I really dont know.. just something to check.
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm Posts: 780 Location: Houston, TX
Spoke to the sailmaker about ideal materi@materials and cost. My current jib is made out of Code0 material and developed small tears here or there over a 2 year period. Easily fixed with stick on patches and repairs are except able cosmetically. I expect we will see this with Hobie's spinn too in time. A normal problem with lightweight sails. A better kevlar reinforced light weight snuffable material is available but it will cost more. An AI jib that cost $390 using Code0 will cost about $550 with the better material. Future patching will be more obvious with the better material as therequested are thin black lines on a white background vs pure white like with the Code0.
Which of these jib materials would most people prefer?
_________________ Greg
2016 AI - Spinn & Jib
“Out of sight of land the sailor feels safe. It is the beach that worries him.” – Charles G. Davis
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
My opinion is a furlable wing jib would be a very good option for a TI. Wing sails are much more powerful, yet only have 1/4 of the heeling force of regular sails (heeling force is the force trying to tip you over). The designs are super simple (any sailmaker can design and build them). Control is easy as pie, you only need a single simple control line. All just my opinions FE
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm Posts: 984 Location: Benicia, CA
fusioneng wrote:
My opinion is a furlable wing jib would be a very good option for a TI. Wing sails are much more powerful, yet only have 1/4 of the heeling force of regular sails (heeling force is the force trying to tip you over). The designs are super simple (any sailmaker can design and build them). Control is easy as pie, you only need a single simple control line. All just my opinions FE
I would like a reference source for the 1/4 heeling force since it doesn't seem plausible (after all, the CE of the sail is at the centroid of the triangle and that is above the CM so you get heeling force-and wing sails have the same triangular shape, hence centroid is in same spot; wing sails are heavier so CM is higher up, but not enough to make that much difference). Wing sails are more powerful because they don't deform and you can control the camber placement and amount perfectly. It doesn't seem to be "catching on" in the sailboat sport, though since there are only a few prototypes out there but nothing serious to compete with traditional sails.
_________________ R/Thom SeaRail 19 Triak BMW C600 Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers Formerly raced F24 Mk II
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm Posts: 984 Location: Benicia, CA
vetgam wrote:
Spoke to the sailmaker about ideal materi@materials and cost. My current jib is made out of Code0 material and developed small tears here or there over a 2 year period. Easily fixed with stick on patches and repairs are except able cosmetically. I expect we will see this with Hobie's spinn too in time. A normal problem with lightweight sails. A better kevlar reinforced light weight snuffable material is available but it will cost more. An AI jib that cost $390 using Code0 will cost about $550 with the better material. Future patching will be more obvious with the better material as therequested are thin black lines on a white background vs pure white like with the Code0.
Which of these jib materials would most people prefer?
The nylon spin probably won't see the wear of a code zero jib. If you are getting rips/tears, it is because you have something sharp tearing the sail. Nylon will last a really, really long time. It stretches but comes back to original shape, time after time. I had one spinnaker that lasted 10 years with no issues; finally sold it to another boat owner.
I don't think your sailmaker is looking at the right materials. Dacron would make a really good jib the size you want but it is too stiff to snuff. The weight of the material isn't the crucial issue, it is the "hand". Granted, I haven't found the perfect material yet myself that combines durability with dimensional stability (non stretchy) with a soft enough hand to snuff--so if you do find some material that does all three, share please. My current 7 oz surlast jib snuffs OK, but it is stretchier than I want.
_________________ R/Thom SeaRail 19 Triak BMW C600 Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers Formerly raced F24 Mk II
A typical jib has an L/D of around 5-10, wing sails have L/D up to 60. I have no clue what my L/D is, ( I'm guessing around 20-30)
Here is a video I made during testing back in 2013, showing almost no heeling moment (watch the AMA in the water when it's engaged/disengaged). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A13bnkQ_saY
The wing is 33sq ft and around 6 inches thick based on an Eppler 420 sailform. In 10mph winds or greater it has pretty much equal power to the 90sqft main, (based on my own testing....I often put the main away and just use the jib)
Much of my stuff is based on Tom Spears thoughts ( http://www.tspeer.com/), I just figured out ways to design and built my own for a hundred bucks in my garage with no tools over a couple weekends vs $5 million bucks (price of an AC72 wing), LOL mostly out of necessity (because I could only afford a hundred bucks, plus I have absolutely zero desire to have a giant rigid wing on my boat, and have no giant overhead crane to put it onto the boat (lol) so I made it furlable so it hoists no different from a normal jib (with a halyard) in around the same amount of time, and is stored laying in the boat always hooked up along with the main and spinnaker during transport. I made the wing back in 2013, and have been just using it ever since, with really no changes or modifications. Yea I have plans and designs completed to convert my main to a wing as well, but seriously lack the ambition to finish it ( I strongly doubt I will ever build the wing mainsail or any additional sails (what I have works beyond all my wildest expectations, (lol, who knew)).
Anyone can easily design and build their own, they are extremely simple to make.
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm Posts: 984 Location: Benicia, CA
You are kidding, right? Tom Speer is a pretty reasonable amateur and gets a lot of stuff right, but not everything. The article you cite is an advertisement that wants to sell you a wing sail. The video clearly shows your leeward ama getting more depressed as you engage the jib, that is, more heel. I've also never seen any of the ubiquitous articles about wing sails that actually discusses any changes in heeling moment. I've also SEEN video of an American Trimaran with wingsail vs the Catamaran with standard sails during one of the Americas Cups (the one where Oracle brought it back). BOTH boats were on one float during the races (ie, MUCH HEEL) and the Wingsail was faster, but not by much.
There isn't any possible way that your L/D is 20 or more. Rig isn't tall or narrow enough. The gliders that have L/D of 60:1 have very long narrow rigid wings. The word is ah-ma. I do understand that folks like Bill Cosby tend to exaggerate for effect, so I give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't intentionally trying to mislead folks.
If you can show me a wind tunnel test of a wing sail vs a conventional sail that shows significantly reduced heel, I might believe, but my name is Thomas, so I'm doubtful.
_________________ R/Thom SeaRail 19 Triak BMW C600 Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers Formerly raced F24 Mk II
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am Posts: 3062 Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Like I stated I have no clue what my actual L/D is, I was just guessing at 20 based on my own comparison of the heeling moment to my many other regular jib sails of similar size I've made for my TI's over the last 6 yrs. My logic is if my old jib was L/D 10, the wing appears twice as nice so I picked 20, no intention of misleading anyone, I could care less what anyone else does or thinks, I spent a hundred or so bucks in materials (ripstop nylon) spent a couple weekends in my garage making the stuff and I'm now all set, been just usin the same stuff for 3 yrs now most weekends. I have no plans to do anymore, from my eyes I already own one of the most unique watercrafts on the planet and just want to go out and just use the darn thing and be left alone. I only posted about the wing stuff as a possible business venture for the OP because in my opinion what I have is the coolest thing out there and was dirt simple to design and build and works so far beyond even my own wildest dreams, I have shared everything pertaining to the wings design and concepts on the forum, anyone wanting to design and build their own can have at it. It took me around 4 hrs to design the whole works in Solidworks, any competent designer should be able to design the whole works in way less time (I was inventing and drawing at the same time, now it's invented, the design time is half). All the wingforms like the eppler 420 airfoil design have been out there for many years. Good luck and have fun FE
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm Posts: 984 Location: Benicia, CA
tpdavis473 wrote:
I don't think your sailmaker is looking at the right materials. Dacron would make a really good jib the size you want but it is too stiff to snuff. The weight of the material isn't the crucial issue, it is the "hand". Granted, I haven't found the perfect material yet myself that combines durability with dimensional stability (non stretchy) with a soft enough hand to snuff--so if you do find some material that does all three, share please. My current 7 oz surlast jib snuffs OK, but it is stretchier than I want.
Here are some good shots of my surlast jib in use. It is bulletproof and has nice shape but I think there is probably something else "out there" that is lighter and less stretchy but will still be durable and snuffable. You can see that I (also) have trouble keeping the jib luff on centerline. Fortunately, on this sail day I didn't need to point with it since it was a reachy wind. Just for reference, this jib cost $50 and an afternoon to sew together.
_________________ R/Thom SeaRail 19 Triak BMW C600 Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers Formerly raced F24 Mk II
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm Posts: 984 Location: Benicia, CA
I made another jib for snuffing. I used ripstop polyester kite material I got on eBay. Material cost $33 (I already have the corner reinforcements). I stitched together in about 3 hours. I used more luff sag in my calculations so the jib ended up noticeably flatter. I tried it yesterday and it worked fine--but it was very light wind so not a true test for how it will work in big summer breeze. http://icarexpolyester.com/ It "ought" to be good for big wind since our jibs are about the same size as some big kites. These stunt kites get up to speeds of 30 mph which is about the same windspeed the sail will be seeing if you are going 10 kts in a 20 kt breeze. The material is extremely low stretch.
_________________ R/Thom SeaRail 19 Triak BMW C600 Formerly Getaway with Custom Spinnakers Formerly raced F24 Mk II
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