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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:50 pm 
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PeteCress wrote:

My problem so far is finding a panic snap amenable to release


This?

Durable Stainless Steel Snap Shackles Quick Release Swivel Bail Rigging (large) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011RGV4YQ/re ... XxbCHZ1RA4


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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:45 am 
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scc wrote:
Durable Stainless Steel Snap Shackles Quick Release Swivel Bail Rigging (large) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011RGV4YQ/re ... XxbCHZ1RA4
That's not a Panic snap.

It might work, and it might not - depending on direction of pull and whether-or-not the pull simply rips the lanyard out the keeper ring - leaving the twisted remains of the keeper ring still holding the pin in locked position.

It is, however, what I have securing the tether to my PFD/Harness..... the hope being that I can find the lanyard by feel and, once I get my hands around it the direction of pull is going to be close enough..... tried it a few dozen times and it seems to work....

But a true Panic Snap is really the way to go - both for the tether-PFD/Harness connection and even more so for the tether-clew connection.

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Location: Medicine Lake, MN
PeteCress wrote:
UKTI wrote:
Another area that concerns me is that if I do go overboard with the sheet cleated, the TI will not wait around. I'm considering how best to rig a 'kill' line between me (somewhere) and a quick release shackle on the rear mainsheet block.
Anybody tried this without strangling themselves?
I have been obsessing about this for almost a year now.

My current practice is a tether of 1/2" braided line attached to the rear X-bar and snap-shackled to my PFD/Harness. .... The snap-shackle has a lanyard connected to the release pin that I am pretty sure I can pull if/when I have to.

But I would very much like to add your "Kill" line.

...

Hi PeteCress & UKTI,

I posted over on this thread (http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=59796) about my tether experiments, but I am adding it here, too, as it seems relevant:

Tether
There I was, out on the lake at family camp this summer with my wife. We had a pretty decent wind, with whitecaps, and I had my micro-hakas in place so I could hike out on the tramp and balance it a little. I was piloting from the rear seat, and I wanted to hike out onto the port haka. As I placed my feet on the tramp and sat back, I missed the haka… and suddenly I was going over backwards, head-over-heels, implementing an impromptu test of my self-inflating PFD! As I bobbed to the surface, there was my wife, with no sailing experience, disappearing into the sunset!
Naturally, she yelled, “What do I do!”, and I yelled back, “Steer toward me!” She actually did a good job steering the boat back. I managed to grab an ama and crawl back aboard. Sailing the rest of the way back to the launch point (a beach) was slightly uncomfortable with the inflatable PFD up tight around my ears. My wife, ever concerned for my safety, suggested I look into implementing a tether to prevent the boat from sailing off without me in the future. Thus this post.
I read up on this forum about what I could regarding tethers. I couldn’t find anything that was based on real-world experience. Someone expressed hesitation regarding “skiing” behind the boat as it continued to sail, and being unable to swim or keep ones head above the water. Various attachment points have been discussed, including foot, wrist, and waist. With all that swirling in my head, I determined to do a little experimentation. I started with 50 feet of 1/8” paracord, because that is what I had for spare line in my boat at the time. Someone had suggested tying the tether to the bow so you would work as a sea anchor and keep the bow pointed into the wind. That seemed like a reasonable idea, so I tied the far end of the line first to the front aka crossbar, then up through the bow shackle, then back to the rear seat, where it would connect to me. I didn’t really like the idea of having a rope around my ankle, or my wrist for that matter. So I tied the line to the lowest latch on my PFD. For this test, I didn’t want to waste another $30 refill of the inflatable PFD, so I used a normal, vest-type PFD I always carry as a spare. The line ended up tied about at my belly-button.
I implemented the test in two phases, as so:
1. STATIC PHASE
To begin the test, I stopped the boat in the middle of the lake and furled the sail. The boat was drifting a little bit with the wind, but not too bad. I then just jumped in the water. No big deal so far, the boat was not drifting so fast I couldn't catch up with it, even with my pathetic swimming skills. So, I swam backwards as fast as I could until I ran out of line… and bump, I felt a gentle tug. I stopped, and the boat stopped. I could almost pull the boat behind me. At no point did I feel like it was going to pull me under, or make it awkward to swim. I had full control of my attitude and position at all times. All I had to do was pull myself along the line back to the boat. In fact, as I pulled, the boat moved towards me slightly, as I moved in its direction.
2. DYNAMIC PHASE
Emboldened by the success and lack of drama of the first phase, I immediately determined to go all-out. I set the sail, got up some speed, and dropped overboard. Just like the static test, this was impressively drama-free. As the line ran out, I felt a gentle tug, and I picked up a little motion, and the boat slowed down considerably. I was easily able to pull myself back to the boat. I didn’t really act like much of a sea-anchor, pointing the bow into the wind, but that didn’t matter, because the boat was pretty much dead in the water anyway, and there just wasn’t much motion. After returning to the boat, I managed to slide around to where the mainsheet was cleated and uncleat it. After that, the most annoying part was the sail flapping loudly overhead, until I could get back aboard and furl it.

Based, then, upon this limited but real-world test, I am much less worried about the tether causing any kind of issues when in the water. After thinking about the physics, I decided that the difference between the weight of the boat and my weight was relatively small, in proportion. I weigh maybe 150 lb soaking wet, and the boat is maybe 250 lb, fully loaded. So the difference was vastly less than that between me and a fully loaded bass boat at 2500 lb. I affected the motion of the boat nearly as much as it affected me. There was no way it would ever be going fast enough to drag me very far before it slowed down to a snail’s pace.
I still have the tether on the boat, just as I originally rigged it. Just to reduce the amount of line laying around the boat, I might shorten it and tie it to the rear aka crossbar for the next sailing season. Trying to leave it on the bow shackle is kind of pointless, because it just doesn’t have the intended affect.

Just to repeat and summarize, even with the sail fully loaded and the sheet cleated, the boat was unable to drag much at all, and I had no issues whatever pulling myself back to the boat.

An enhancement I plan to add next season is to create loops in the tether line to assist in righting the boat from a capsize. See more about righting an AI/TI here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=59480

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:42 am 
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You have confirmed that all this mental imagery of being dragged helplessly while the Island sails madly towards the horizon is simply unrealistic. Heck, I once jumped out of a 3500# yacht which more or less stopped as soon as the tether tightened.

My simple carabiner is enough for me.

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2012 Tandem Island "SIC EM" with Hobie spinnaker


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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:26 am 
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Location: South Florida
I missed this post last summer (I'm out west at 7,000-10,000 ft summers). Regarding getting back in the boat after exiting, some WaterTribers simply hang a loop (1 strand of paracord or other strong line) between the xbar anchors--one on each side of the hull. Demonstrating the ability to right your boat after capsize and re-enter is a requirement of entry into the WaterTribe Everglades Challenge. My loop(s), along with other mods to my AI 2, is shown here: http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7276&start=750

A lot of talk about tramps and re-entry via the tramps. Those of us who do not use tramps, usually use hakas. As with tramps, once you get yourself up on an ama, you can leverage yourself onto the haka. My hakas can be slid in and out along the akas. From the haka, it is easy to get over into your seat.

Keith

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:46 am 
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tonystott wrote:
You have confirmed that all this mental imagery of being dragged helplessly while the Island sails madly towards the horizon is simply unrealistic. Heck, I once jumped out of a 3500# yacht which more or less stopped as soon as the tether tightened.


I have had two relevant (?) experiences:

  • - Cross-onshore wind gusting into the high twenties: Was walking the AI to the beach in waist-to-knee-deep water, not tethered. .... Stumbled, but still had a hold on the fore aka. ..... Boat went sideways to the wind and dragged me so hard/fast that I could not maintain my grip.... Boat wound up about .1 miles down the beach blown up into some marsh grass...... In retrospect, maybe it was better for me that I could not hang on.
    .
  • - Paddling my surf ski off of Barnegat Inlet in New Jersey, catching 4-5' waves that were forming up where the inlet channel met a bar about a half mile off the beach. .... Misjudged a wave, me and the ski went over the falls and then the ski got caught in the whitewater. .... My calf just below the knee was tethered to the bow of the ski..... Dunno how long it was - probably not as long as I think - but I was dragged, spinning like a bass lure, until the whitewater stopped as we got back to the channel. .... No problem there, but if the dragging had been indefinate (as it would have been tethered to an AI in high wind) there clearly would have been the prospect of serious leg injury and/or drowning.

My takeaways:

  • - You want to be tethered to a proper harness, not one of your limbs, and not just a plain old PFD. .... My setup involves 2" webbing straps sewn into my PFD, D-rings, and crotch straps so the PFD can't get dragged over my head. ..... Tested by bouncing my full body weight on the tether attachment point via a line attached to an overhead beam.
    .
  • - You need a quick-release on the harness end that can be actuated under stress. .... My current implementation is a snap shackle with a lanyard on it. (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP ... JaRW5TYzBR).

    I am not 100% happy with it, but am confident it will release when needed.... it's just that it can also release without my realizing it during normal sailing, leaving me un-tethered/unaware.

    My ideal would be a panic snap, but I have been unable to find one in stainless that has a grip/release that seems like it would work.
    .
  • - I still think there is an argument for some sort of quick release on the clew of the sail so that when the sailor goes overboard and the tether tensions, it actuates that quick release. .... I've obsessed over this for hours and hours, but have not come up with anything that seems like it would work without introducing a major hazard from a flogging sail. One seeming possibility is what the paragliders call a '3-Ring-Circus' where the release is comprised of three lightweight steel rings, some webbing, and some line... but I have not gone there....yet...

_________________
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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
eMail: [email protected]


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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:50 pm
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Location: Medicine Lake, MN
PeteCress wrote:
tonystott wrote:
You have confirmed that all this mental imagery of being dragged helplessly while the Island sails madly towards the horizon is simply unrealistic. Heck, I once jumped out of a 3500# yacht which more or less stopped as soon as the tether tightened.


I have had two relevant (?) experiences:

  • - Cross-onshore wind gusting into the high twenties: Was walking the AI to the beach in waist-to-knee-deep water, not tethered. .... Stumbled, but still had a hold on the fore aka. ..... Boat went sideways to the wind and dragged me so hard/fast that I could not maintain my grip.... Boat wound up about .1 miles down the beach blown up into some marsh grass...... In retrospect, maybe it was better for me that I could not hang on.
    .
  • - Paddling my surf ski off of Barnegat Inlet in New Jersey, catching 4-5' waves that were forming up where the inlet channel met a bar about a half mile off the beach. .... Misjudged a wave, me and the ski went over the falls and then the ski got caught in the whitewater. .... My calf just below the knee was tethered to the bow of the ski..... Dunno how long it was - probably not as long as I think - but I was dragged, spinning like a bass lure, until the whitewater stopped as we got back to the channel. .... No problem there, but if the dragging had been indefinate (as it would have been tethered to an AI in high wind) there clearly would have been the prospect of serious leg injury and/or drowning.

My takeaways:

  • - You want to be tethered to a proper harness, not one of your limbs, and not just a plain old PFD. .... My setup involves 2" webbing straps sewn into my PFD, D-rings, and crotch straps so the PFD can't get dragged over my head. ..... Tested by bouncing my full body weight on the tether attachment point via a line attached to an overhead beam.
    .
  • - You need a quick-release on the harness end that can be actuated under stress. .... My current implementation is a snap shackle with a lanyard on it. (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP ... JaRW5TYzBR).

    I am not 100% happy with it, but am confident it will release when needed.... it's just that it can also release without my realizing it during normal sailing, leaving me un-tethered/unaware.

    My ideal would be a panic snap, but I have been unable to find one in stainless that has a grip/release that seems like it would work.
    .
  • - I still think there is an argument for some sort of quick release on the clew of the sail so that when the sailor goes overboard and the tether tensions, it actuates that quick release. .... I've obsessed over this for hours and hours, but have not come up with anything that seems like it would work without introducing a major hazard from a flogging sail. One seeming possibility is what the paragliders call a '3-Ring-Circus' where the release is comprised of three lightweight steel rings, some webbing, and some line... but I have not gone there....yet...

Pete,
Interesting! I have a bad habit of projecting my experience on the universe, and assuming it applies everywhere. I can see how the forces of surf and wind could be much different in roiling whitewater or heavy surf, than in my case on a fairly enclosed lake with no whitecaps... so your search for the perfect solution has me thinking again... please post if you find something!
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:44 pm 
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tonystott wrote:
You have confirmed that all this mental imagery of being dragged helplessly while the Island sails madly towards the horizon is simply unrealistic. Heck, I once jumped out of a 3500# yacht which more or less stopped as soon as the tether tightened.

My simple carabiner is enough for me.


I agree Tony, about the tether. Also one should have a working knife on you at all times, I do because I'm always using it to bleed my catch. Personally, I hardly ever use a tether. More than likely it will cause a serious accident by entangling on something on the kayak and causing one to fall. I don't need more clutter. With that in mind, one has to always assess the situation and decide prudently on the conditions how much mobility one can have, safely. There are times when the waves or wind get so rough that I don't leave my seat, or crawl, not stand up, then I am inclined to attach a tether. Mostly I just don't go out in such conditions if known before hand or turn around, never is good fishing when rough.
Same with physical condition. I rely on my good fitness to be my emergency ace in the hole. One has to know their limitations and apply accordingly. To relieve myself I just roll to my side in my seat and let it out, a little salt water splashed up for any misses.

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:29 am 
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I agree, Mark, about the clutter. Some people seem to like "clutter" on their boats. No. Keep it simple!

A good example of "clutter" is this "Hajime K" steering system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmokGcagtJk Wow!

Personally, I slide forward out of the seat and pee into the drive well. Not all that convenient because I wear paddle pants + shorts + underwear. Got to quit wearing those shorts! Unnecessary with paddle pants.

Keith

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex ... It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." A. Einstein

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:06 am 
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MedicineMan wrote:
... in my case on a fairly enclosed lake with no whitecaps... so your search for the perfect solution has me thinking again... please post if you find something!
One "Solution" that probably applies to my bay sailing and your lake sailing is to just forget about the issue and carry a bagged mobile phone or VHF radio.

After all, what can happen? In my case, there is always a lee shore.

My problem with this "Solution" is that I would be counting on others to bail me out if/when trouble occurs....and that seems, somehow, wrong...... I would *hope* for assistance, but counting on it just doesn't jell for me.

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Last edited by PeteCress on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:02 am 
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Pete, I take a different approach... I carry out a risk assessment (in my head :lol: ) and if the probability of the particular scenario actually happening is lower than (say) getting bitten by a snake, or getting run over on the way to the shops, I tend not to fret about it too much.

In the highly unlikely case of me falling overboard (chance of getting out of the seat being inversely proportional to wind strength), my simple carabiner attached to my non-harness PFD should be enough. Remember, if you ARE in the water and tethered to your Island, it is not going to go anywhere...

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:15 pm 
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[quote="tonystott"]... if you ARE in the water and tethered to your Island, it is not going to go anywhere.../quote] Depends on the wind and how the sail is set.

Low wind, furled sail, no problem.

High wind (20+), furled sail, it is going somewhere - with or without you.

High wind (20+), sail deployed, sheet cleated, you're going for a ride..... hopefully able to get air or disconnect.

Been there, done that - all 3.

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2015 AI in "Dune" - "The Grey Pig"
2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Pete, your comment that you will be dragged through the water if there is 20+ knots of winds relies on a lot of factors to align...Do you have any first hand experience of this?

Of course a giant yacht will tow a tethered person along, but I do not believe an Island could generate sufficient drive from the sail to do so, without being seriously affected by the drag of the body in the water. It is very difficult to imagine it somehow staying fully powered up

You might like to watch the attached video, which offers a lot of safety knowledge, even if a lot of it is more relevant to bigger vessels. One part which is really relevant is to see the huge amount of drag a slightly built woman makes hanging on a rope at 5 knots. This is why I do not believe an Island could generate enough power to keep going with someone in tow.

Sorry I can't work out how to properly embed the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bamiejcNpIg&t=2s

PS. Adding crotch straps to all my PFDs is now my highest priority, and should probably be as high on everyone else's list too!

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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:29 am 
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tonystott wrote:
Pete, your comment that you will be dragged through the water if there is 20+ knots of winds relies on a lot of factors to align...Do you have any first hand experience of this?


Yes.

One diff between the AI and a big keel boat is the lack of lateral resistance. .... The AI sides sideways almost as easily as it goes forward.

In light air with sail furled I would not be concerned with the harness setup, but the boat will gently pull you along. Ditto heavy air, sail furled - albieit faster.

In heavy air with sail up, trust me....

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2017 Trailex 450 Trailer
Pre-September 2015 cradles
(anybody want to buy a slightly-used AI SpinKit?)
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 Post subject: Re: Answering the Call
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 am 
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Well, if you're in 20+knot winds and need to pee... Just pee in your seat. There is more than enough water splashing at those winds to quickly dilute anything.
If your cleated at 20+ knot winds you've probably got more going on than having time to worry about peeing.


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