Course made good efficiency in a Tandem Island

All good stuff. Most of which people just don't think about until its too late. It can be really scary when things break or you capsize or taking on water or the weather turns or things just not going as planned and you are not prepared. So just to list what fusioneng already said and maybe a few more:

Life jacket
Water
Lights
Bilge pump
Anchor
VHF radio
Whistle or horn
Compass
Distress flag
First aid kit
Spare parts ( rudder pin, ...... what else?)

Practice righting
Practice covering ground against current and wind

I was out on my previous boat (Getaway) years ago about 2 miles off shore from my launch location. Beautiful sunny blue sky day. Then within minutes, a wall of fog flooded the area. I couldn't see 50 feet. I pointed in the direction of launch and made a run for it, 2hp Honda. Found myself 90 degrees off course when I realized I was entering the mouth of a nearby river. Could have easily been 90 degrees the other way and heading further out to sea. I was lucky and followed the shore when I figured out where I was. After that I always had a VHF, horn, gps and compass in case the gps failed. Things can get ugly really really quick. Be prepared.

_________________
2002 Getaway - SOLD in 2018 "Cheshire Cat"
2016 AI - Bought used 3.18.23 "Crabby Puppy"

Good reply…
Talking about fog rolling in suddenly, it’s the worst….
You have no sense of direction, lol we ended up using the key fob from our car to find our launch point, ( true story).
The only time we had to actually use our compass…
FE

Thanks FE for the detailed response and the list of experiences sailors (all) need to be prepared for .... especially TI sailors. I am grateful for the TI multiple modes of thrust .... sail, peddle, paddel (optional motor). Have used all. Every sailor has their sweet spots for wind and conditions.....I typically look for wind in the 10-20 mph range.

Back to the original post questions:

I believe my response directly addressed the two questions asked:

Question 1:
For those who sail their tris in weather fair and foul, which would you say is the optimal angle into the wind for the fastest course made good?

Response:
TIs upwind sailing capabilities are weak.... typical is in the 45 to 50 degrees close hulled.
Add in unfavorable current....50 to 60 degrees.....
Add in stronger head winds 20+ mph.... will be a no go.

Question 2:
What are y'all's experience in this matter and does anyone have a definitive answer?
Response:
Solution: Get a motor and use it liberally when fighting strong head winds and currents.

I sail my TI a lot.
I am currently in the Florida Keys. I have been putting in 15-40 miles a day heading out into the Atlantic Ocean reefs or kicking around Florida Bay / Everglades South of Flamingo and North of Tavernier.

Been a blast. I also do a 1 – 1.5 hour sunset sail with my 2 dogs and anyone else I can convince to come along just about every night (25 sunset sails this month!). On the casual sunset sails….just plan fun sailing till dark. I have running lights set up on my TI and I use them every night. No lines to gain just fun sailing.

On the long sailing runs deep into the Everglades / Florida Bay or the reefs off in the Atlantic….this is a much more serious business with safety being # 1. Much planning on best routes to take including tides and currents. Wind direction and speed are the main factors that define the lines to gain. I try to plan all my long sailing runs as reaches both heading out and the return leg (basically running a course perpendicular to the wind direction). Most of the time my outboard motor never comes on….just sailing. Florida Bay has many semi submerged reefs that are hard to spot and you need to navigate around. I plan many sailing routes near the submerged reefs to take advantage of less waves….can be tricky with poorly marked crossing points…..some only passable at high tide….. My stock 2022 TI has been modified in many ways to provide extra strength and improved safety margins.... very important for the conditions I sail in.

I am a member of the WaterTribe (informal group of kayakers). You can find good information here: https://www.watertribe.com/Default.aspx

A new factor has popped up here in the Florida Keys in early 2023…. Sargasso Seaweed! The pesky yellow colored sea weed floats on the surface and down ~6 to 12 inches deep. The seaweed grows in patches…. As small as your hand …. and in large patches….ranging from the size of a kitchen table to a football field and larger…. Anything that sticks below the surface (daggerboard, rudder, Mirage Drives, paddle, motor shaft and prop) will rapidly collect big globs of seaweed. Right now the seaweed is a nuisance with a fairly light infestation of seaweed in the Florida Keys…mostly on the Atlantic side. ….. but the forecast for the rest of the year is not favorable…. Navigating the tricky passages between Florida Bay and the Atlantic (Snake Creek) with the strong currents, frequent head winds, boat traffic, and now seaweed …. You need to be on top of your game. When running through the clumps of seaweed, I need to clear my rudder, Mirage drives, dagger board and motor shaft about every 5-10 minutes….while trying to steer clear of the big patches of seaweed....otherwise you end up being a big sea anchor going nowhere. I got into a routine….clear the rudder, ….then clear the dagger board, ….. then clear the Mirage drives, then clear the motor shaft….. then repeat…..till in the Atlantic where you can get 10-30 minutes between clearing sessions….. What to do…. I am thinking of options…. Mostly doing more sailing in Florida Bay that currently has less seaweed and only put stuff down when you need it (I find I am keeping the Mirage drives out of the water and just inserting the plugs). Down the road….maybe add a second motor with a long saft that you can just push through the seaweed. Jet skis are also struggling with the seaweed issue…..

Still enjoying my TI and the challenges that come with it.

I am hearing rumors of one or two new boats that are coming .... to compete with the TI..... stay tuned....

Enjoy a couple of pictures and YouTube video from the Florida Keys below!

Hobie Tandem Island Sunset Sail by Jim Powers, on Flickr

Alligator Reef Lighthouse - Pictures from a Kite by Jim Powers, on Flickr




YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/L-hq2GImYEA

More information and videos: https://www.youtube.com/@seewind

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

Apologies to the OP for taking this question far off track. My final comments regarding gas motors on these boats.
1. Hobie never designed the boat for this. So it could be grounds for warranty claim refusal.
2. Since you modified a boat beyond manufacturer's design limits an insurance claim could be refused.

Sound silly? Go ask your dealer and insurance agent. The boat is not designed for gas motors, if it was hobie would be selling the stuff. They sell stuff for electric motors, which mount differently.
I know many of you are engineers with the technical skills to quantify and design properly. And you also are smart enough to know that a manufacturer will not look kindly on your work if something goes wrong.
There are a lot of beginners out there who read our posts and now think they need a gas motor on their boat to be safe. IMHO this is the opposite.
If Hobie admin catches on to these discussions there will be a big sticky from them about it.

This is off-topic and I apologize to the OP, this subject should have been brought up in a separate thread. But since this subject has been brought up here, it needs to be answered.

I think most people here know that adding a gasoline outboard to a TI or AI could potentially result in a warranty refusal from Hobie. I've covered this before. That said, Hobie Island owners have been doing so for well over a decade and I personally don't know of a single instance where this has happened. Given that the Hobie warranty is only one to two years anyway, this is not a major concern to those who have owned their Hobies for many years and are no longer under warranty. Additionally, the Federal Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act provides a remedy to consumers for the failure of manufacturers to abide by their warranties for reasons unrelated to modifications. So, if your MirageDrive failed or your rudder broke, Hobie could not frivolously use the fact that you added a gasoline motor to deny warranty coverage. It would need to be a failure directly related to the motor. After over a decade of Hobie Island owners installing gasoline motors on Hobie Islands, including myself, I am not aware of any such related failures. Finally, as has been shown time and time again in this forum, few manufacturers have been fairer or stood behind their products better than Hobie.

The statement about if Hobie "catches on to these discussions" is ludicrous as there have been endless ongoing motor discussions here almost since the beginning of this forum, dating back well over a decade. There are also many motor discussions on the Hobie kayak forums. Even the FB forums on Hobies are loaded with motor discussions. Many people buy these boats to motorize them. While Hobie may not officially endorse this, what a customer does with their own property after they purchase it is beyond their scope. Hobie did officially release and endorse the Hobie Evolve motor, so they are certainly aware that their customers want motor options.

Concerning insurance, when you apply for a policy you must always disclose to your insurance company exactly what kind of boat you have and whether or not it has a motor. Then, it's completely up to them to decide upfront whether to underwrite your policy. Most insurance companies that underwrite boat policies are certainly not going to get too excited about a 2.5 HP motor. My TI, which once had a tiny 2.5 HP Suzuki outboard, was insured by the same company that insures my Sea-Doo GTX Limited PWC with a masive 300 HP motor. They didn't blink at an 11-foot PWC with a 300 HP motor that can go 75 MPH or more so I don't think they were too concerned about an 18-foot TI with a 2.5 HP motor. I routinely see boats with two or even three 250 HP motors strapped to the back of a relatively small powerboat. These boats can go well over 80 MPH. Imagine their destructive power and the kind of people who own them. Yet, I'm sure they're fully insured. To think that you can't find any insurance company to cover your 2.5 HP TI which can go all of 6 MPH is laughable. As long as you fully disclose exactly what boat and power equipment you want insured, the insurance company will tell you upfront if they will insure it or not.

If anyone is still concerned about gasoline motors for any of these reasons, they always have the option of going electric. The new Hobie TI capacity sticker allows up to a 1.1kW motor which nicely covers the Torqeedo 1103AC, Newport Vessels NK300, Newport Vessels NT300, and ePropulsion Spirit 1.0 Evo, all capable of delivering 3HP of propulsive power equivalent.



I get that some of you don't like motors. That's fine, no one here is forcing anyone to install one. But for many, they are a significant improvement to the usability, enjoyability, and safety of a Hobie Island.

Take a careful look at the Hobie 2022 Tandem Island use sticker....

Take a careful look at the numerous caution statements.....

Interesting .... 1.1 KW motor with a max of 400 W

Hobe 2022 Tandem Island Sticker by Jim Powers, on Flickr

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

The sticker on the left is a US Coast Guard Capacity Plate, the one on the right is a European Union CE Certification sticker. Different countries, different criteria. The one that applies depends on the country where you use the boat.

Jim:
You can ignore the CE certification over here, it means nothing.
The USCG cert is 1100 watts, ( watts is a unit of energy measurement). Horsepower, (HP) is also a unit of energy measurement. The two can be converted back and forth.
I believe 1100 watts energy is equivalent to 3hp, (according to the electric motor people like Torquido anyway, ( they always state the hp equivalent in hp on their web sites).
So you and your 2.5 Suzuki are good, ( my calculation come out to your motor at around 800 watts).

It just so happens my twin modified hybrid 2.3 Honda’s are also under the 1100 watts. They were modified and re-propped to produce 1 hp each, ( 2hp total). Which was the power requirement, ( 2hp), to propel my modified TI to 8mph at my max rpm, ( which was 2000 rpm), that’s of course with no wind, waves, or sails deployed, on flat water.
Of course the fuel economy goes way up when limiting the rpm and horsepower, up to around 80mpg.

You can test all this with your existing Suzuki, with all sails down on a calm day. Fill your onboard tank. Set your rpm to just above idle, and take off, with just motor power, your boat should get up to around 2-3 mph, and just putt around until you run out of fuel. I’m thinking you will get at least 3 hrs before running out of fuel, and you will note how quiet it is. That’s what I was going for with my setup, just re-prop to get to your desired speed, adjust the prop diameters to suit the available horsepower and your good to go, ( easy peazy).

Below is optional reading, ( with explanations)

Let me explain…. All outboards are hp rated at their max rpm, (5500 on the honda 2.3), and all outboards are geared, and fitted with a prop that is pitched to propel a standard boat, ( I think it’s a 12 or 16 ft flat bottom boat they use for the spec) to 6 mph at max rpm, and they size the fuel tank so the motor operates for 1 hour. Pretty much all what they call portable outboards sold comply to this same standard. (I call it monkey see monkey do,,, drives me nuts)
The downside here is at max rpm and horsepower the outboards are very loud, smelly, and vibrate your teeth out. They also consume tons of fuel. Most fuel tanks are about a quart, ( 1 liter). So doing the math, one tank of gas at max rpm,( 1 qt of gas), gets you 6 miles, times 4 to equal a gallon comes out to 24mpg, thats the fuel economy of pretty much every small. Portable outboard on the market.
If you were to put two outboards on that same standard boat the top speed may increase 1 mph, but no more because the propeller spinning in the water is like a nut traveling up a spinning threaded rod, (can’t go any faster).

What I did on my outboards was install throttle limiters, ( I also re-jetted the carbs just a little). To maximize engine performance and fuel economy at 2000 rpm max, which just happened to be 1 hp of force, ( exactly the hp I needed to propel my TI to my desired cruising speed, (8mph), actually I needed two hp, so the reasoning for the twin outboards.
The result is very quiet motors that don’t vibrate at all, ( you can easily talk over the motor noise). Don’t take my word for it, you can do this on any outboard, also watch any of my dozens of videos, all with live sound, of me talking.
For years I measured my miles traveled, and always measured my fuel usage, nearly always achieved 60-80 mpg, which is better than most cars. Better yet I could go out all day sailing, adventuring, and diving for about a buck in fuel cost.

I have a Honda 2.3 - the reason it's so loud is because it's not water cooled. I believe the Suzuki 2.5 is water cooled so it should not be as noisy.

I appreciate the warnings about needing a motor and I agree but will wait till I have the $$$ for a Torquido as the Honda is loud. Until then, I stay close to shore and in rivers.

I have had my TI several months now but tomorrow will be the 3rd time out so want to keep it close to shore anyway in case I screw up.

Thanks,
Fletch

_________________
22 Lynx
22 Compass Duo "Liparus"
22 TI "Victoria"

Lots of interesting info, but not sure how well OP's questions were answered.

As a very experienced sailor, I think the question was intended to decipher "when sailing upwind, is it better to point high and slow 50 deg off the wind, or go 60-70 degrees off the wind but faster?"

Unfortunately, there's not a perfect answer, as the correct answer is different depending on wind speed, sea state, current, and even which tack you are on. (with an off-center centerboard, port tack is more efficient for pointing, as the board is deeper in the water).

For me, an indispensable item is a small hand-held marine GPS, like a Garmin. I like knowing how fast I'm going, and how far I am from the launch or other destination. Fog, rainstorm or lack of daylight isn't an issue. And if you use the "Go To" function, you can see exactly what your Velocity Made to your Waypoint is, so a few minutes of trial and error will answer your question for your current conditions. Point high and see what the VMC is. Then fall off a bit, speed up, and now see what the VMC is. Try pedaling along with sailing and see what that does. After experimenting like this a few times, you'll get a pretty good feel for it, and will start to make good decisions naturally. And you can always check your instinct with the GPS.

It's a good exercise for going downwind, too, as straight downwind often isn't the quickest way to get there.

Very good advise about using the gps
FE

Interesting response, not sure you intended this but it came across as a bit confrontational. Jim actually gave you all the needed information to answer your question in his first reply.

For a different perspective - VMC and the related polars are primarily for regatta's and that doesn't seem a priority for these boats. If you aren't racing, then VMC is basically getting to where you want to go when you want to get there. No polars needed for that, and Jim's first reply address the basics of the weak upwind performance of the boat with some very relevant data. He and others also made the case that for dealing with the conditions you were in, a motor as a 3rd level of propulsion is often the solution. To me, that actually seems very related to your post.

But what do I know? I come from a background of multihull sailing and racing (H16, N18, C24), but new to Islands and new to the forum. I didn't expect the TI to come close to the performance of the other multihulls I've owned, so looking for polars didn't even cross my mind. I will likely add a Torqeedo later this summer as this will be my 'swiss army' boat for family fun.

Have you been able to sort some things out with your boat since last year? Anything to report back? Using a GPS you could create your own polars and if they were "sailing only" (no secondary propulsion), could be valuable.
I pickup my boat next week, and I'm sure I will also have some adventures and a steep learning curve. You asked a good question, and other than some rabbit hole replies (hey it's a forum after all), I found some really useful information here.

Thanks, and all the best!
Brad

Great response, thanks!
I appreciate that the port tack will be better; hadn't thought about that but makes perfect sense. I'm trying to decide if I go for a chart plotter, a handheld GPS or just an iphone app. I think I will search around a bit for that.

All the best,
Brad

I'm curious, how does that work? 1 HP = 746 W. So 1.1 kW is just a tad under 1.5 HP. So it it because they are just better tuned that a "typical" 3 HP gas outboard? Or is it just typical advertising truth-stretching?

Yes that was the intention. They hijacked this thread with their self congratulatory pontifications on something completely unrelated while contributing nothing to the topic in question.

You're new here it seems so you wouldn't remember how this forum used to be bustling with activity and exchanges of knowledge. It was bad enough to have to deal with fusion's entitled exhaustive pedantry, but once Powers joined him they just fed off each other's flatulence and have seemingly ran the rest of the contributing members off, and now it's a ghost town.

Apparently nothing which directly addresses the OP which means you're doing great picking up where where the other duo left off.
Congrats!