Rudder Pin design

I think the Twist-n-stow rudder assembly is a engineering marvel and for +95% of the AI owners it will work great. The rudder pins have been improved and I'm sure we will further improvements as practical. I would like to see a sturdier rudder system for the AI for us 5%er's.

Sorry Ron (Darwinian), I didn't hit anything with my rudder. About 3 weeks after my AI transom cracked, my friend Scotts did also. Both were plastic welded by my dealer but mine didn't last. Both were using slightly harder pins than the newer production pins. The only difference was, I was taking additional trips fishing and kayaking in calm water. Both cracks were discovered when sailing in calm water after mellow outings the week before.

So be aware what can happen if you use harder rudder pins.

If you look at the inside of the transom area, it is hollow, with the plastic molded around the brass insert, but nothing between it and the hull. We (Scott and I) are trying to beef up that area, but only time will tell.

We used the harder rudder pins for over six months before the cracks showed up. I don't think it was any one occurrence that caused it, but repeated flexing of the rudder (transom)., especially going up and down waves, as the rudder at times completely leaves the water and then plunges back in. I found out how much force that creates when I tried (twice!) to add a rudder winglet. Both times the rudder assembly snapped off and sunk, in the first half hour of use.

So, for you that haven't broken a rudder pin yet, don't worry about it. For you that have, gently keep nudging Hobie and I'm sure we'll see more improvements. How many companies do you know that constantly improve their products, and when practical, give every owner free upgrades?

Kayaking Bob

During my first few months sailing the AI, I did in fact sail a lot in shallow waters with the daggerboard swung up. I just left the rudder under very loose tension or, when in real shallow water, uncleated. This worked great. Even under 10-15 knot breezes the rudder worked fine. The few times it hit bottom, it kicked up and I just had to re-pull it down. No problem. No need for any other system.

Since then, all of my sailing has been pretty exclusively in deep water. All of my rudder pin breaks have occurred in deep water. As mentioned earlier, I had two brand new rudder pins break after sailing in only deep water after just a short time (15 minutes, and two hours) in very modest winds. Others broke in higher winds. All of my rudder pins broke from relatively normal sailing conditions, and without the rudder ever having contacted anything throughout the pin's life (except that first pin used in shallow waters that, ironically, lasted the longest). I am pretty certain that most of the others with pin breakage will tell similar stories. The problem and worry that most of us have is not from the rudder contacting something, it is from the pin breaking under normal sailing conditions.

I hate to keep harping on this point, but here goes again...

Before the current pin was created for the AI... we sailed these boats with a weaker pin for pre-production testing and then the first year of production. The guys in Hawaii helped us test versions of a new pin in rough conditions.

Testing of the new pins, when built correctly, had excellent results.

We have now confirmed that there are some inconsistencies in the pin production (some voids have been noted here). This is the obvious reason for many of the unusual (calm conditions) failures.

We will work on the production consistency. This will solve a large percentage of the issue I think. I will continue to provide comments to our engineers to see if twisting loads or other issues are adding to the premature failures. They can determine if lubrication would be effective or some other change should be considered.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Hi guys and thanks to all the contributors including Matt of course on this topic. I am just now at the computer with the said worn pin on my desk. I can categorically say that although Mickey and I have been out in some 'adverturous' weather in these fantastic versatile craft, I have not hit anything or had the rudder blade swing up. My rudder blade leading edge and bottom is as new so no sand dragging here.
This premature wear and tear has been caused during normal usage, not damage.
I bow to the greater experience in these craft of the likes of Kayaking Bob from Hawaii and others here. But what I find still difficult to swallow is many of the contributors such as these very experienced sailers, are also experiencing the premature pin failure issues. They reveal this by attempts to beef up the transoms, introduce extra bungy cords (this will not help by the way) and manufacturing tempory pins that can be popped in whilst at sea. Such a small part of this wonderful rig causing such grief.
I tell you folks it is not hitting objects that is breaking pins in the main. It is sloppy tolerances between the parts. Brass inserts with 8 mm diameter holes for the rudder box, with a 7.9mm diameter pin and most of our problems would go away.
The other solution would be for Hobie to run a stainless plate around the rudder fixture on the transom and bolt it back further into the boat evening out the stresses and protecting the vunerable section, then introducing a stronger pin.
In the meantime, I will have to resort to ordering multiples of the pins then inspect and change them regularly.....Pirate

Pirate... let us know when you break your first pin.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

here is a rudder pin after 8 - 10 hours use in calm and moderate conditions. as you can see needs replacement. btw is there a better way to remove these without causing so much damage (top and bottom)



you can clearly see where it is going to break. i cut the pin and found there was no void

bit of an eye opener for me, since this now means pin replacement will need to happen weekly or after every decent outing

I agree entirely with this. I do sail in tidal and shallow waters, and in the rare occasion the dagger board hits the bottom, it is very noticeable, and is so deep, that the rudder itself is not affected. If I forget to remove the dagger board when approaching the shore, which has happened, I am not proceeding at any great speed, and thus it simply makes me aware I have grounded, without any real impact.

It seems to me that we have only one option here. Record the sailing hours, and inspect the pin, and then we will get a handle on this.

I see that its not that easy to remove the pin from the bottom, using a pair of pliers to close the "clip", and then using a pin of some type to push the plastic pin up and out. It needs a lot of pressure to move the pin, which is intriguing, given the comments about wide tolerances, I don't seem to see any evidence of that. But next time I have the pin out I will inspect the holes carefully.

Looking at that inside view of the hull, I wonder if we would be advised to fill it with epoxy?

Is this an original pin? What boat serial number? These can be damaged in transit and warehousing.

Did it have the "D" shaped head?

That looks to be soft.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

There are no prices in my Hobie Accessories and Parts catalogue. What will my dealer charge me for one of these rudder pins, or perhaps half a dozen?

Ron

I bought four for some $30AUS. Including postage. You would pay less.

Geoff.

Matt, I am hoping this discussion will lead to a very much needed upgrade that will result in an improvement by Hobie to this vital area of any yacht, ie the rudder. Many a fine yacht and more than a few lives have been lost in the past because of simple rudder failure.
At the moment the pins are very much the weak link in this fine little yacht which can be easily improved. This is a common problem with a fix that is simple, inexpensive and necessary and Hobie has both a moral and legal responsibility to improve what is now a very public flaw in an otherwise fine vessel.
Matt, look at Astro's last post just above this. His pin is doomed to fail after just a few hours, and very similar to where mine is bent and damaged. This is not fair wear and tear. This is not hitting submerged objects or running up on the sand. This is a very poorly presented rudder pin system that needs to be quickly corrected. And look at his additional point about the difficulty in getting the pin out for inspection. That point was my initial starting point with this thread.
Matt you saw my post above where I presented a photograph of my pin which is similar to Astro's but not yet as bad. Both pins is doomed for early failure and you, representing Hobie, repying with "let us know when you break your first pin" is both wrong and unprofessional.
You stated in an earlier post in this thread you wanted evidence of busted pins, well just look at these photos and its very obvious where they are quickly going to fail. Others have reported they fail near the bottom of the pin, just where ours are about to. How about fixing it and stop using us as guinea pigs....Pirate

Matt, if you go to page 5 of this thread, you will see a photo taken of the same pin just a few hours of use before my last photo above. It is deteriating from use, not damaged in transit. Mine is the 'D' shaped head though is now hard to tell since its so easy to damage in the removal process...Pirate

no this is the 4th pin i have used
CCMD5994A808 10/08 purchased
Yes D head

Just a thought is it possible the rudder hold down shock cord is preloading these asssemblies while in storage

Well if you are talking about the cord across the rudder, mine is NEVER left on. Its used for traveling only. And I travel about 5 minutes, beach to home. Nope, that's not it.
Geoff.