Return to Hobie.com
Hobie Forums
It is currently Fri Jul 18, 2025 3:24 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:56 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2502
Location: Central Florida
When "racing", every little bit helps! :D

_________________
Image
Hobie Island Sailing since 2006


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:05 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:16 am
Posts: 235
Location: HISC Chichester Harbour UK
reconlon wrote:
If you can minimize the water resistance, and the wind and waves are just right, you can really get going.

In 2006 here in Maui (a month after getting my AI's) I got just the right conditions one day with many fast runs many 22's & 23's and finally a 28mph run on the GPS. Fastest seems to be when the wind created long wind waves (miles long). I just sailed along the tops of the waves, with less water resistance. I later found the readings were a little high from the gps bouncing around (I didn't have it mounted yet). I also found on returning home that a Small Craft Advisory had been added after I had left for my sail. :shock:

I no longer try that as I've had discussions about what would happen if something broke at that speed (thanks dear). :(

Above about 10mph the hull hums from planing.

Since the beginning of 2007 I've kept a log with statistics.

09/22/2007 - Three of us were sailing a beam to broad reach doing 8-9mph when a VERY strong steady gust came for over a min. pushing all three of us (in formation) to 19.7MPH! We could see each others boats but couldn't see each other because of the spray off of the hulls reaching at least 1/2 the height of the mast!

That's my two big wind stories, On sailing trips (not fishing) I try to break 10mph. In good conditions I average over 5mph including drifting during snacks and lunch.

My log is posted here:https://sites.google.com/site/kayakingbob/Home/sailing-log-1

2009 has been a slow year so far for getting out sailing, between extremes in winds (too little to sail or small craft warnings), My sailing partner getting a knee replaced, his wife (3rd AI) with back problems, and then a long trip "off island".

With a new GPS I bought on my trip I can now even save and show the "Track" of each adventure! (click on "Track", for either of the top two newest entries in my log)

Enjoy, go fast, but be safe!


Wow! I thought he was joking, maybe in ideal conditions 20 knots is possible. I am even more impressed.
Got a whole 9 days of bimbling and playing with the AI ahead of me... Fantastic! :D :D

_________________
Either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:06 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 3017
Location: Escondido
chrisj wrote:
Matt, thanks for clarifying the definition of daggerboard and centreboard. Hereafter, I will only refer to it as a centreboard (centerboard in American).

Chris, I tend to think of the AI daggerboard as a variety of bilge board but, because it is not mounted in the center, it is not quite a variant of a centerboard. Yet it wouldn't normally be thought of as a leeboard either,as the leeboard is usually a pivoting board mounted on a gunwale. So over here we would refer to it either as a daggerboard or bilgeboard.

I only mention this in case you're down at the yacht club and want to engage in a technical discussion with some of the "old salts". On the other hand, your meaning is perfectly clear when you say centerboard and I'm not taking any issue with it!

Slaughter wrote:
I'm think'n that the turbo blades would have to give better resistance to sideways slip than the dagger anyway. I just roughly measured the surface areas of both and the 2 tubo blades combined have about 20% more surface area than the daggerboard. So, I'm think'n that if you do have sidways slip, the only advantage of using the dagger over the drive is that it's quicker to install. When sailing with the drive in place I always have the blades vertical, but I'd like know though what has more drag, the drive or the dagger.

IMO, the daggerboard is quite a bit more efficient than the fins. Because it is long and narrow, the DB is said to have a higher aspect ratio, similar to gliders, U-2 spy planes and other high lift wing designs. The higher the aspect ratio, the more efficient the planform. Additionally, the exposed Mirage Drive surface under the boat adds a component of drag that the board isn't saddled with. This adds to its higher surface area (even more drag), not to mention that the surface and cross section of the DB are hydrodynamically cleaner.

Finally, when stationary in the vertical position, the fins are not rigid. They tend to twist somewhat as the boat slips sideways, slipstreaming more toward the tips.

When the fins are active, they are adding a forward component of thrust as well as some lateral resistance. Thus with the same leeway but with a greater speed, the boat has a better tracking angle. At least that's my theory. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:36 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1807
Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
Since both Matt and Roadrunner have used the analogy of aircraft wings when discussing the umm bilge/dagger/centre/lee board, I wonder if someone could clarify something for me. My understanding of aircraft wings (and sails) is that they have to be asymmetrical to generate lift - the Bernoulli principle.
Image
Since the thingo-board is symmetrical, wouldn't it's only effect be the lateral resistance it offers and wouldn't that be simply a function of it's surface area?

_________________
Image


Last edited by chrisj on Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:46 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 95
Unless you want to have 2 daggerboards, one for each tack, we are stuck with symmetrical.

Note that the sail, while asymmetrical (flaps the other way on each tack) is far from perfect also. In fact, it would be better if it were a symmetrical solid.

_________________
jzk

Hobie Adventure Island.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTIq7IhU84Y[/youtube]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:53 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1807
Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
While on the subject of physics, here's a formalisation of Pirate's & Roadrunner's assertion that actively pedalling reduces the need for a daggerboard. If we construct a vector triangle:
Image
You can see that the harder you pedal, the longer will be the side AB of the triangle and the closer the resultant force will be to straight ahead. I know, it's intuitively obvious anyway, but it looks more believable if you make a diagram.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:57 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 3017
Location: Escondido
chrisj wrote:
My understanding of aircraft wings (and sails) is that they have to be asymmetrical to generate lift - the Bernoulli principle.
Image
Since the thingo-board is symmetrical, wouldn't it's only effect be the lateral resistance it offers and wouldn't that be simply a function of it's surface area?


An airfoil can be symmetrical and still generate lift if it has a positive angle of attack (AOA) where the leading edge is tilted away from the airstream slightly. It's also fun to do this with your hand while driving down the road. Another good example is the rudder. The asymmetrical airfoil you show has a positive camber which also generates lift at 0 degrees AOA. The resultant lift that wings produce is by a combination of the two and is more effective than either one alone. Of course, if the plane is flying along upside down (as stunt planes will sometimes do) it needs lots of + AOA to stay airborne with all the camber facing in the wrong direction!

Getting back to the thingo-board -- when going upwind, the side slip generates a positive AOA on the upwind side of the board, thus reducing side slip. Downwind, there is not much of a tendency to slip so the board doesn't have anything to do except drag along so to speak.

The board also enhances the boat's turning ability significantly at all times by acting as a fulcrum. This is helpful in tacking, but sometimes critical in downwind conditions such as reconlon's where he needs instant access to full rudder authority more than the extra speed.

When sailing the Adventure (as a monohull) the DB really excels over the fins in slowing down the initial heeling moment during gusts, allowing more time to react. The other Hobie kayaks (all wider) have no board option, so they have to rely on their fins as a pseudo board. It works, but not as well as having the real thing. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:13 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1807
Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
Thanks for that explanation RR. If I understand you correctly, that means the bow of the boat needs to be rotating to windward somewhat, in order to generate a positive AOA for the board. In other words, the tendency of the boat to weather helm is essential to the effectiveness of the board. Since it also contributes to the weather helm, by bringing the centre of lateral resistance forward, I guess it all makes sense :idea:.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:59 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 3017
Location: Escondido
Lets say the wind is from the North and you're headed East on a beam reach. You're heading is 090 but you don't have your board in and you're slipping 15 degrees. Your track is then 105. All of a sudden you remember to insert the board and though you're still headed 090, your slippage drops to 5 degrees so now your track is 095. Your board (assuming it is straight) has 5 degrees + AOA to port. So the daggerboard has dropped your net slippage by 2/3 by a combination of lift (to port, generated by the AOA) and positive pressure (from starboard).

Weather helm is another issue having to do more with the CLR with respect to CE (center of effort, determined by the sail plan). Design location of the board is an important element to CLR and represents an entirely different function of the board. The CLR can be temporarily modified by raking the board back by various amounts. In almost all cases this reduces weather helm upwind.

Simultaneously, the board starts to become less efficient as its aspect ratio changes relative to the water flow (this has nothing to do with its location, but it's angle in the water) and allows more side slip. Downwind there is no issue, but upwind, you want the board straight down if possible so long as the weather helm does not become excessive.

Looking at fins vs DB, the board is mounted slightly aft so the AI should perform with a slightly more neutral helm using the DB than with fins. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:55 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1807
Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
Ahhh, now I get it. I should have looked at one of my own vector triangles:
Image
No weather helm required, as you say RR.
Thanks yet again.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:35 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 5:06 am
Posts: 1701
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW AUSTRALIA
mmiller wrote:
Quote:
when it's time to furl the sail, it's time to install the dagger


This seems to be the opposite of sailing logic.

On most boats (and I believe this includes the AI) you want the dagger fully down in lighter air and reduced as the speed / wind increases. You can sweep the board aft in higher wind.

Its a bit like airplane wings... slow planes use big, fat foil wings. Higher speed aircraft use shorter, narrower and thinner air foils.


Matt, I can't see how the centerboard being vertical or pivoted to horozontal can make much difference to the performance of the AI. The surface area is the same no matter what position it's in, and it's not that the board is profiled to act like an aircraft wing. It's just a board. I can see how the AI would turn better with the daggerboard vertical as the AI is pivoting around the board, but whether the board is vertical or horozontal, the amount of side slip would be the same wouldn't it ?

P.S. I prefer to call it an off-centerboard

_________________
Image

Don't take life too seriously................it ain't permanent.


Last edited by Slaughter on Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:47 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1807
Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
Hey Slaughter, have a look at Roadrunner's and my last few posts. He's convinced me it acts somewhat like an aircraft wing, even without the profile.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 95
I went out for a sail this morning in medium wind that built to pretty good wind. No furling necessary though.

The daggerboard is essential when sailing close hauled in any air. There is just no two ways about it. And, if you are sailing close hauled with the drive in, then we are not even talking about the same thing. You already killed your upwind performance so much with the drive. And, if you are pedaling it, then we aren't even talking about real sailing but rather "motor sailing."

And, when I say "close hauled," I mean sailing as close to the wind as possible to maximize VMG. Put the daggerboard down, sheet in, sail your course. Look at the horizon. Then take the daggerboard out. You will immediately see that you fall off.

Also, as far as the position of the daggerboard, straight up and down is best. A sailboat with a deep, low aspect fin will sail higher and faster than one with a long shallow fin.

_________________
jzk

Hobie Adventure Island.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTIq7IhU84Y[/youtube]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:09 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:16 am
Posts: 235
Location: HISC Chichester Harbour UK
Slaughter wrote:
mmiller wrote:
Quote:
when it's time to furl the sail, it's time to install the dagger


This seems to be the opposite of sailing logic.

On most boats (and I believe this includes the AI) you want the dagger fully down in lighter air and reduced as the speed / wind increases. You can sweep the board aft in higher wind.

Its a bit like airplane wings... slow planes use big, fat foil wings. Higher speed aircraft use shorter, narrower and thinner air foils.


Matt, I can't see how the centerboard being vertical or pivoted to horozontal can make much difference to the performance of the AI. The surface area is the same no matter what position it's in, and it's not that the board is profiled to act like an aircraft wing. It's just a board. I can see how the AI would turn better with the daggerboard vertical as the AI is pivoting around the board, but whether the board is vertical or horozontal, the amount of side slip would be the same wouldn't it ?

P.S. I prefer to call it an off-centerboard


Another consideration has to be the turbulence created where the Mirage drive hangs down. I know the board is offset to the right, but with it flat back against the hull, it has to be affected by the dirty wash from Mirage drive. Also with it up against the hull the surface is constantly being disturbed. With it down it must get cleaner water to get a purchase on.

My 2 cents worth, probably bollox! :)

_________________
Either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Centerboard
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:38 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 1807
Location: Terrigal NSW, Australia
jzk wrote:
And, if you are sailing close hauled with the drive in, then we are not even talking about the same thing. You already killed your upwind performance so much with the drive. And, if you are pedaling it, then we aren't even talking about real sailing but rather "motor sailing."

And herein lies the fundamental divide between those who see the Mirage drive as an intrinsic part of the AI's appeal and those who see it as an unfortunate corruption of pure sailing. Personally, I love that by using the sails and the drive in concert, you can make the boat perform better than with either on its own. I love being able to continue going wherever I want, even when the wind drops and the "real" sailboats are sitting around going nowhere with their sails flapping. I love all the exercise I can get while having fun, even on a hot summer day. I can see the aesthetic joy in "real" sailing, but if that's what you want, why not get a Laser or a Hobie 16?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
© Hobie Cat Company. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group