A story, and alot of questions

Gotcha, thanks for the clearification. I thought you meant he should sheet in prior to tacking/jybeing... and that sounded scarey.

Yes i used to do that every time before i left shore on my h18.

andrewscott,

With all due respect, if you've been sailing for 30 years and still don't understand the theory of apparent wind, it's no wonder you would not turn downwind to furl your jib in high winds! Apparent wind is a fundemental of sailing on ANY boat and is not an "advanced theory". Apparent wind is what allows a Hobie Cat or any other high performance beachcat for that matter, to actually sail faster than the wind is blowing. Break out your sailing book and read up on it, it's a very simple theory. Next time you're on your boat in a fairly heavy blow, turn directly downwind or better yet, slightly off the wind in a deep broadreach to reduce your chances of a unplanned jibe and see for yourself how much the boat slows down. You can use this technique to furl your jib (if needed) or just simply to take a break from a hair raising screaming reach!

Tom

Tom, we are going to have to agree to disagree that Apparent wind is advanced theory. I didn't say i dont understand it... i said i barley understand it... and this was a bit of a stretch to exemplify ...

When i say i barley understand it.. perhaps i should clarify.. it took me many years of cat sailing (casually) to even hear of it, and another several years (of weekly sailing) of how and when i have taken advantage of apparent wind, and or how to utilize it...

"Apparent wind is a fundamental of sailing on ANY boat ... Apparent wind is what allows a Hobie Cat or any other high performance beachcat for that matter, to actually sail faster than the wind is blowing."
- Yes, i understand this,.., but since almost no new cat sailor and almost no standard monohull is capable of EVER gaining apparent wind... my statement that 1/2 the sailors dont even know about it still stands...(IMHO)

This thread was written by someone with little experience or at least little heavy air, i still dont think bringing apparent wind into the solution will benefit him/or others about how to handle this type of situation... Apparent wind is not on my mind in heavy air....

This is an untrue statement. Seriously, you need to read up on apparent wind. Once you understand the concept your sailing ability will improve drastically. All sailboats are capable of gaining apparent wind. Any sailboat that is moving has apparent wind!

Tom

Walking gives you "apparent wind". Any motion through the existing wind conditions will change the wind effect on the moving object to apparent wind.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I stand corrected (i am not above being or admiting being wrong)

PS the mono hull statement was a result of my recent sails on a hunter 23. when i asked the skipper if apperent wind was in the picutre he stated what i said above.

Ok, i will read up.. any suggestion on what to read?
PS i have read about it in Rick Whites books, he used riding a bike on a windy day as a metophor.

The riding a bike on a windy day is a good simple explanation of apparent wind speed and angle. Here is a more detailed link to the theory.

http://londonarea.ms-sc.org/UserData/London/Files/Part2/sail/BasicTheory.doc

Here's another link that is directed more towards kids but has a good simple explanation which even I can understand!

http://boatsafe.com/kids/bramp1099.htm

We are getting closer.. any ones with stick figures and Dora the Explorer?
just kidding... actually very well written and understandable.

I am sure what i meant to write (and the skipper of the hunter 23) is better said like they do in the link
"Boats that are able to sail faster than the true wind are "creating their own wind". Generally these are fast catamarans and iceboats, although some racing monohulls may be able to achieve this. "

I do VERY much appreciate the info and links. I will print out the first link and read it on a flight sunday... but in looking over it briefly... SURE doesn't look basic... and...

Without trying to argue, and admittedly i dont know all there is about apparent wind (far from it).. i did understand these concepts prior to this post (read Rick Whites book 5 years ago, and have had many conversations with my 74 year old mentor) but putting it into an application under sail is very different than understanding a concept.

I know when i have lost my apparent wind, especailly downwind. and i know how to regain it (esp downwind) but upwind.. its much more subtle (for me at least)

Man, you guys are rough on a newbie. He wanted a thrill, saw some air and loaded the boat for balance. His tacking problem was weight related, guaranteed! Furling the jib will help but IMO its not the save all move. Increasing downhaul, limiting mast rotation, sheeting hard and pinching would have been my moves. By keeping the boat pointed up he could control the speed and healing. With proper weight distribution tacking would have gone much smoother, I bet the crew was at the front x-bar.

He did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve you guys bashing him like hes some idiot. Some cat sailors are risk takers and others are.....well, lets just say cautious. He and crew where in site of land the whole time and they and the boat all got home safely, 'nuff said!

I disagree.. and i dont think anyone bashed him for it. It was even said directly this was not a personal attack ...

He has recieved invaluable advice, answeres to his questions, experience and a little bit of strongly worded warnings about risking crews life by going on an extended sail in unfavorable conditions... without proper gear and backup. but you are entitled to your own opinion

Agreed!

The main issue is tacking and furling. It seems to me that you are used to keelboats, so your sailing technique is the same but totally different. To tack on a cat you don't have the weight and momentum to merely push you around. The 18 you can point quite close to the wind, but is still too far when tacking. When the wind starts going over 20 knots, you have to relearn how to tack. I normally bounce the 18 into the wind and crank in the jib and bounce out again, simply not strong enough to pull in normally. That helps me backwind main to kill power and to point higher. Most keelboat sailors on cats tend to not have sails in tight as they should which creates tacking issues - too far away from the wind. My main and jib is cranked in and I just sail as close to the wind as possible. You can adjust your mast rotation to radically kill power but you also lose a hell of a lot of pointing ability. The other problem is your timing of tacking, could be when you were tacking a wave would push your bow away from where you wanted to go. If you go out on trapeze you will point even higher. Crew position is vital - the jib pulls those bows quickly under water - slowing you down. You need them as far back as possible (trapeze better), helps to dig rudders in when tacking and better balance for boat.

I would not recommend backwinding the jib at all when tacking in high wind, it pushes bow down and creates it's own problems - sailing solo I am just too slow - so normally I would furl the jib at 15/20 knots. Once the wind has caught jib there is no turning back. You can help to kill power by moving jib fairleads backwards as well. Most 18 jibs bulge due to the plastic window - limits your pointing ability. Recut/replace.

Furling is easy - last resort is to point into the wind, there is tension on the rig which will hurt the furler. Bear away until you find you can pull the jib in easily, then remember what sail positions are etc remember to make sure jib halyards are not twisted, caught in something etc. Crews asses will be the main culprit here. So simple yet so difficult when boat is flying up and down waves, crew panicking etc. Just focus on the simple things. The 18 does not capsize easily, it gives you ample warning so don't worry. Going downwind in these winds is not recommended, you just hurt the boat when bows bury themselves and jibing is lethal when unplanned. Dunno about hurt the boat but it can't be good - probably more fatigue.

Sailing with just the main is easy, cannot point as high - even with downhaul cranked in, so tacking is new again. 25 knots plus to tack is difficult, unless you have good boat speed you will fluff it. You will have to reverse steer to tack. My 18 I have to release main quite a lot before I get going again - main pulled in will push you into irons again. In the wind you had you will do 16+ knots of boat speed without even pulling in the main completely. (without jib)

Jibing to me is fun, I do a slow jibe - when you are turning for the jibe, pause halfway and manually throw the boom or push the mainsheets over while moving to other side and then continue turning. I dislike crash jibes - especially unplanned ones. The jib can get caught on your spreaders depending on tension of rig etc so watch for that. I would prefer to do a high wind jibe over tacking without a jib even though you do more distance that way.

Most 18 foot cats are wet boats, in high wind you will get wet on just about anything. I go out in shorts etc and have my splashsuit in the tramp pocket. We all learn the hard way how nature changes in an instant. Having a solid tramp means you sit in the water, while a mesh means you get sprayed on. Either way you still get wet. The bow wave and spray will come over the top any way. Once you trapeze - you stay dry. Mesh is far superior especially the newer hobie 16's that had the grey lining on the outer edges of the tramp. Having a loose tramp makes the hulls walk and you can't point as high.

Time on the water with your cat will solve all the issues that you raised. The best lesson I learnt was to sheet in rather than out, there are times that you will pivot the boat into the wind only on the rudders and rearmost parts of the hull, but that is the fun of it all. Just play.

Thanks for the info in the replies. Ncmbm was right - I had the crew on the front crossbar. I'm still not sure why I thought it was safer (ie more stable) to have someone on the lee side of the boat! duh! So next time I'm out, I'll correct my mistakes - making sure weight is correct and of course the jib is backwinded. I hope to be pleasantly surprised at the ease of tacking. I never quite mastered the roll tack in the racing dingy's either, but sounds like I can do much of the same to get a sharper tack. Practice, practice.

Oddly enough, I do have knowledge on things like apparent wind. It's why iceboats are sheeted in and sailing "upwind" all the time. It's quite odd to see, but the piece I'm missing is the application - and perhaps a little common sense So I'll agree with Andrew on that one. Concepts to reality is sometimes not so straightforward. I don't think he was too harsh - I expected a lecture, and hopefully some answers too. I think I've gotten more answers than lecture. Given all the discussion on furling the jib, apparent wind, and the pretensioning idea it's been informative. I had to read it twice on the pretensioning idea to get what you meant. I don't "re-tension" my shrouds after the mast and sail is up. I did wonder how loose they should be though, as of course it's noticeably looser after putting them under that load. I would expect under sail for the leeward side to loosen up a bit of course. Given that method I think I could maybe get an extra hole on each side. Hmm.. I do only loosen one shroud for the setup and teardown as a way to speed that process up.

Ohh, and a question on the wings. My folks weren't so keen on going for a sail after they saw there weren't any "seats" for them. If I added wings, that would change as they could now "sit", but would they still have to move when I changed tacks? I mean, in light airs could I sacrifice and allow them to stay seated on the leeward side when I tacked? Obviously I have to be careful about weight here, but I hope you get the idea.

_________________
Is the power of 2 hulls with you?
"Rainbow Flyer" - '86 Hobie Cat 18

Ohh, and since I've got an audience and we're on advanced topics, let me ask a couple other questions. On sail adjustments. I get the outhaul - I can flatten or loosen the horizontal sail shape, and in general I tighten it up in light winds, and loosen it in heavy winds to sail more efficiently. I want a nice foil shape. Got it. Ditto for the downhaul, although I'm a bit confused if I've got it setup right. It should control my vertical sail shape. I've got the rope thru a cleat on the boom, and that's it - I'll have to look, I just don't remember pullley's. and I believe I should have some - aka 4:1, 6:1. I also don't get why I would limit the mast rotation. What does that do for me, and why would I want to do it? I do get in heavy air I guess I could loosen it up a bit to dump wind, but I'm really missing something I think. Also, the traveler itself is interesting to me because I've got 2 adjustments on it as well. Why/How/When would I want to tighten or loosen that block adjustment? Thanks!

_________________
Is the power of 2 hulls with you?
"Rainbow Flyer" - '86 Hobie Cat 18

I am sorry, you have used up your quota of questions... now back to the bashing!!!!
(kidding)



In general... you want them TIGHT!.. and as the saying goes "the hard she blows, the tighter they go"..


Gad zooks! you got it backwards.. (in general.. upwind)... in light air you want a rounder fullers sail.. so you go light on the downhaul.. and outhaul. In heavy air you want (in general.. upwind) a flatter sail.. so you go heavy on the hauls (out and down). Downwind is different.. as you basically release the downhaul and perhaps the outhaul.



since a rotating mast acts like more sail area you can restrict it (and the angle it is to the wind). You restrict it by tightening it up(in general.. upwind). in normal conditions it is basically set to point to your side stays (at max rotation) and in heavy air. you reduce that (i point to my rear beam)




Hmmmm you may be stumping me here... what are the 2 adjustments? in and out? hahah.. until i better understand i will just say (in general.. upwind) you keep it centered to point. if your in heavy air and need to depower,... crack it off a few inches (to a foot or more) you will lose the ability to point.. but you will also heel much less.

As for the wings... they rock. if you can afford them, i would get them.... Parents on the low side? if you are looking to drown them.. then sounds good... . .. basically they would be "Trapping" off the low side if you keep them on windward after a tack... it can be done... but you may have some new "adventures" if you get hit with a gust..

I am glad you saw the comments as education. keep sailing that rocket ship and it will all become second nature (after a few hundred more hair raising experiences).