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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:01 am 
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chrisj wrote:
I was talking about tacking with the drive out versus gybing with the drive out, Pirate. With the drive in, it's a no-brainer - tacking is the way to go. With the drive out, you will undoubtedly complete the turn further upwind when tacking than you would when gybing, but I am suggesting that the extra speed through, and coming out of the turn when gybing may compensate for this. As I already mentioned, if you cannot reliably complete a tack with the drive out, gybing would have to be the way to go.


As I recall it Chris, some time back on this forum this discussion was started by the purists who feel sailing without drive is faster, feels better and generally the way to go. Non-purists then argued that you may have been boat speed in a straight line but you lose lots when you tack without mirage drive assistance possibly ending up in irons. The purists then counter-argued that there was no need to tack as a gybe was faster anyway. I have several times taken the opposite view-point stating the loss of distance upwind out-weigh any other consideration. So from what you say in your statement above, you agree with me then that a gybe may feel fast but would be considerably inefficient as compared with mirage drive assisted tacking...Pirate :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:33 am 
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Sort of on topic, I have been experimenting with the drive in, out and with the fins held in different positions. One thing I have observed since fitting Turbo S/T's is that if the fins are held flat against the hull, you get a definite flutter on the rudder, presumably caused by turbulence from the drive. As you lower the fins to a 45 degree position the flutter goes. So presumably when tacking, it pays to have the fins at 45 degrees or lower to ensure the rudder gets a proper purchase?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:46 am 
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Pirate wrote:
So from what you say in your statement above, you agree with me then that a gybe may feel fast but would be considerably inefficient as compared with mirage drive assisted tacking...Pirate :wink:

Absolutely Pirate. In fact I can't see why you would bother to sail upwind without the drive in. I'm only suggesting that with the drive out gybing may be better given that even some experienced sailors seem to experience difficulties with tacking.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:02 am 
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I raised this question awhile ago, but no-one replied...'What about dual daggerboards?'

I also find that my AI does not point upwind as tightly as I had at first hoped.Using the Mirage fins as a secondary daggerboard is a real compromise, the fins do slow the hull and setting them horizontally or vertically does affect rudder flow.

My C-Scow and racing cat had dual daggerboards and pointed much tighter to the wind
than the AI.

There is room on the port side of the cockpit to have a 'mirror' daggerboard slot molded
in.

Other than a new hull mold for the AI...are there other positives or negatives in having
dual daggerboards in the AI?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:03 am 
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Slaughter wrote:
chrisj wrote:
Maybe we can do some comparisons on the 12th.


Ok Chris it's on. We will ask the others what they think is the fastest turn, and hopefully we will have 2 gybers and 2 tackers. I'll run the book for this bet and giv'n good odds at 1.8 to 1 for a tack and 1.6 to 1 for a gybe. So if you all want to send your money through to me I send you your winnings on the 13th. I don't know how we will carry out these Mythbuster type tests yet. Any thoughts anyone. The lake will be a pretty good playground to duel though.

OK, Proposed Mythbuster Protocol:
If we are going to be scientific about this, we should each do a run tacking and a run gybing. We could find a stretch of lake where we can get a run of say 1km upwind and agree to do say 6 turns each over the course. Using the paddle to get out of irons would not be permitted. We could do the course two at a time, with one boat tacking and one gybing on each run. That would help eliminate the effect of variations in windspeed. Then, on the way back down the course, we could do a comparison of sailing downwind, one boat with the drive in and the other with the drive out, to see what the real difference in speed is. I wouldn't dream of sullying a scientific experiment by gambling, but if you'd care for a game of poker afterwards.......

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:02 pm 
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I was thinking much the same. There are a couple of bouys we could race to but of course it depends on wind direction on the day. So it seems that we have a few gybers out there and a few tackers. But I think we are all on the same page when it comes to sailing with the trolley connected underneath or on top arn't we ? :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm 
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I'm a tacker, but I usually leave the drive in and if I start loosing headway give it a few pumps to get around. I also agree about turning smoothly so the rudder doesn't become a brake.
Interesting to see how it goes on the 12th.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:02 pm 
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chrisj wrote:
Pirate wrote:
So from what you say in your statement above, you agree with me then that a gybe may feel fast but would be considerably inefficient as compared with mirage drive assisted tacking...Pirate :wink:

Absolutely Pirate. In fact I can't see why you would bother to sail upwind without the drive in. I'm only suggesting that with the drive out gybing may be better given that even some experienced sailors seem to experience difficulties with tacking.

Totally agreed Chris...Pirate :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:02 pm 
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I never have the drive in, and after a lot of sailing, I rarely blow tacks, except in very heavy winds and choppy seas. As the wind gets stronger, I also unsheet right after passing through the eye and find that the bow usually swings right around. But, in very heavy winds, you just have to be very aware of your hull motion. As soon as you realize the tack is blown and you are starting to move backwards then reversing the rudder for just a few seconds will turn the bow in the right direction. In heavy winds (the only time one really needs to back) the backing process happens quickly. I haven't timed it, but I'm guessing that the whole process in 15 knts takes less than 15 seconds (I'll try to time it this weekend now that my mast is finally fixed). This is the same technique I used to use when sailing a Hobie 14' in 25-30 knts (I was the Hawaii State Champ back in the late 70's). I think this should be much faster than fumbling for and pulling the furling line, then sheeting, then unfurling. Plus, I always have a problem with the mast not fully unfurling that last half rotation and have to tug on the sail to get it out fully.

As an alternative, I used to just push the bottom of the lower batten to windward to cause the sail to backwind. This eventually does bring the bow around, but is very inefficient. The boat is being mostly pushed sideways. Plus it takes a long time.

A full gybe in heavy air will take much longer, and because of the inefficiency of turning a tri with a small rudder, necessitates a very large arc. I find gybing in heavy air much less controlled, unless one takes the turn slowly. If not, that section of the turn passing through beam to broad reach can bury the hull or break the rudder pin.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:48 pm 
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k-bay cruiser wrote:
A full gybe in heavy air will take much longer, and because of the inefficiency of turning a tri with a small rudder, necessitates a very large arc. I find gybing in heavy air much less controlled, unless one takes the turn slowly. If not, that section of the turn passing through beam to broad reach can bury the hull or break the rudder pin.

K-bay, you're clearly a much more experienced/skilful sailor than I am, so I shouldn't really be arguing the toss with you, but I freely admit that I can't consistently complete tacks with the drive out and even you experienced sailors seem well acquainted with what to do when you get caught in irons and start moving backwards - suggesting tacking isn't always a smooth and elegant process for you either.
As to gybing in say 15 knots winds, I've found the AI can do quite tight turns - maybe two boatlengths diameter. Like tacking, I need to work the sheet. It's like the mirror image of tacking: coming from the close reach to the initial beam reach, I need to sheet out so I'm not fighting the weather helm and stressing the rudder. Then, as the boat comes to pointing downwind, sheet in to stop the sail flapping across too violently, then remain sheeted in as the boat comes through the second beam reach. This time the weather helm works in my favour and I don't have to fight the rudder to get the boat around. Needless to say, the boat comes flying out of the turn. I haven't buried the hull, but the leeward ama may become buried briefly. I dunno about much stronger winds - 20+ knots - I normally have the drive in then and just do drive-assisted tacks.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Great discussion with good points on both sides. From my perspective, I have been a lazy AI sailor with drive in nearly always but am now keen to have a crack at full-blown sailing without the comfort of the drive in place. These AI's are truly versatile especially in the right hands...Pirate

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:45 am 
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Pirate wrote:
Great discussion with good points on both sides.

Agree, very informative; I have many new things to try out every time I go out!

Yesterday I was out in what I consider strong winds (consistently over 20knots, gusting well over 25). I found out that under these circumstances I am not yet inclined to sail without the drive; I love the extra control the drive gives! Everytime I tried to tack without drive assistance (drive in but with flippers up), I got "caught in irons". Most of these times I could get out by using the rudder as k-bay cruiser pointed out. Good to know the trick, in case you have to do it like this, but it feels like you are a prey to the wind (which I don't like). It might go better with drive out and reefed less (as you have more speed to start the tack), but I didn't feel comfortable enough with the conditions to try that out yet.

The preliminary conclusion for me: I love to sail with drive out in moderate winds, and believe that tacking then isn't a problem, but I prefer to keep the drive in when wind is strong (for the control, but it is also great fun to surf the waves! It is amazing that the drive still is so effective at these high speeds).

For those that are going to try out my furling trick, I would love to hear about your experiences! I hope to try it out again in a few days when the winds become a bit less again.

I look forward also to the reports of the tacking /gybing duel. Who is doing the filming? ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:00 pm 
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I ran some tests yesterday both tacking and gybing just after passing to windward of a fixed buoy to reference the relative position after the maneuver. The winds were 15+ knots with frequent wind driven white caps, but no waves or swells. No drive and the daggerboard was raked back about 45 degrees, and I tried both full sail and furled just short of the h in hobie with pretty similar results. Tacking took about 10-17 seconds, including any backing, if necessary (which usually only took about 5 seconds). The boat finished the maneuver about 5-10 feet further to windward of the buoy (since tacking is turning into the wind, you initially gain distance to windward, but lose a little of that due to drift, especially if backing is required). Gybing took about 16-20 seconds with the boat finishing about 30-40 feet to leeward of the buoy. So, if one is able to complete tacks in a somewhat fluid motion, I think tacking wins. I tried to analyze my tacking technique and will outline it below, if anyone is interested in trying it out.

Furled sail in heavy wind, or full sail in moderate wind without large swells:
1. Have good boat speed.
2. Turn into wind eventually reaching full rudder.
3. As soon as the nose hits the eye of the wind and sail luffs, let the sheet out as much as it wants up to about an arm length (perhaps 2-3 feet).
4. Watch the nose of the boat in comparison to the horizon to make sure the boat is continuing to turn (once it gets past about 20 degrees beyond the eye of the wind it will just get blown around as long as the sail is slack).
5a. If the boat keeps turning, then keep holding the rudder. When the nose gets close to the new direction, start to pull in the sail in a smooth, long motion. The initial pull will start the boat forward and complete the turn.
5b. If the boat stops turning (this usually will happen right after the boat passes the eye of the wind. where the wind is blowing so hard that the boat stops any forward momentum), then immediately reverse the rudder full to the other side and let the sheet be free (however much is needed to let the sail luff during the whole turn). You know your timing is right if you almost immediately notice the boat continuing to turn. Timed right, this is almost one continuous motion. Keep holding the rudder in reverse until you PASS the direction you want be going. Then slowly pull the sail in and, as forward motion starts, then reverse the rudder again, but not too much, turning away from the wind slightly.
6. Ease off the rudder. Don't finish sheeting in until you are back up to speed. Then turn back into the wind to your proper course.

Full sail in heavier air:
Everything is mostly the same, except most people don't get how to get good boat speed. In heavy air, when sheeted in tight, the boat naturally pinches higher into the wind than it should. Either one constantly fights this by bearing of in lulls and being brought back up in gusts. Or, one just gives in and the boat moves forward at what seems like an OK pace. One thinks they are sailing well, because the boat is moving forward and is pointing in a favorable direction (close to the wind). But, if you were to track your actual course (drag a polypropylene floating line behind the boat to measure this) you will see that you are actually slipping sideways pretty rapidly. Your effective motion is more than 5 degrees off of where you are pointing (possibly 10-15 degrees). If you try to tack at this boat speed, you will rarely make it past the eye of the wind, because you just don't have enough forward momentum. Now, on a Hobie Cat, in these conditions, we would ease the traveler out a bit. Since we don't have travelers, you have to ease the sheet. It doesn't take much, only a couple inches or so. Once, you have eased the sheet, you will find it much easier to bear off and hold that course. Your speed will increase substantially and you won't slip sideways as much. In fact, if you tracked you actual motion, you will be moving closer to the wind then when you were pulled in tight AND you will be traveling much faster. This is a much more efficient way to sail upwind in heavy air (as is furling the sail) and you will almost always have enough boat speed to make it past the eye of the wind during a tack.

Waves:
Remember that the goal is to be able to turn past the eye of the wind BEFORE the boat starts moving backwards. If you accomplish that, then reversing the rudder will bring the boat around pretty quickly. If not, either you accept defeat and return to your original heading, or you will be adrift in limbo for a long time, which isn't that comfortable if there are waves. Also, note that when you are going up a wave, your forward motion is slowed, or you may even be pushed backward. When going down the back of a wave, you are sped up slightly.
1. Have VERY good boat speed (see above).
2. Watch the waves to make the tack when the waves are smaller and further apart (if this is possible).
3. Time the turn. Just as a wave is passing under you, as it passes under the mast, that's when you BEGIN your turn (perhaps a little sooner depending on how close together the waves are). Your goal is to get the nose past the eye of the wind BEFORE it starts climbing the next wave.
4. Pay attention to whether you are still turning as you climb the next wave. If the waves are larger, or if it's windy, you will almost surely be stopped or moving backwards in which case you won't be turning. In this case, immediately reverse the rudder and continue on as described above. Experience will tell you the conditions that reversing rudder is necessary. In those cases, you just anticipate, and almost always reverse as soon as you start climbing the next wave.

Once again, in order to succeed at tacking, your initial turn has to get you past the eye of the wind. At that point, it is possible to complete the tack in a fluid series of steps. If you can't get up enough boat speed, or it's just too windy, or the waves are just too big to get the initial turn far enough, then I suppose gybing is an alternative. But, IMO, you probably shouldn't be out in those conditions and gybing in those conditions can get dangerous.

BTW-If it is done within a fluid series of steps, I don't consider the rudder reversal a blown tack. To me a blown tack is either when you don't make it and fall back to the original course, or you reach a point where there is uncertainty and the boat begins to drift without your full control. If a reversal is well timed, you don't lose much time or distance. You completely lose forward speed but these boats accelerate quickly, so that loss is minimal. As I mentioned previously, when racing Hobie 14's in near gale force winds and 15-20 foot seas, reversing the rudder was just accepted as the only way to tack (as was climbing all the way to the front of the boat and praying the boat wouldn't pitchpole backwards in the process of backing). We all tried gybing in those conditions and almost always pitchpoled when the sail flew to the other side (you really had to time it with the waves).

Good luck and good sailing!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:43 pm 
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Hey, that's great K-bay. The comparison needed to be done by someone who can consistently complete driveless tacks. Looking at your results, tacking means the boat comes out of the turn about 40-45 feet (13-15 metres) ahead of what it would with gybing. Assuming the boat comes out of a gybe at 2-3 metres/second (7-10 km/h), that equates to about a 10 to 14 second loss on each turn. That is probably not so bad for those of us who are not consistently successful at driveless tacks - it would take a few fast tacks to make up for one episode of getting caught in irons. I will certainly follow your advice and try to get better at tacking, unless of course, I'm being watched by a restaurant full of people :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:38 am 
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Would the restaurant enjoy watching you do a 270 degree turn? I think I would.

Keep in mind the times I posted are from full speed on one tack to full speed speed on the other, so I'm not sure you're getting a speed "bump" from finishing the gybe. But I do agree that sitting in irons for a while just kills any sense of performance.


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