Fluttering speed of ST Turbo's

I am coming closer to biting the bullet on buying ST Turbo's for my 09 Revolution and was wondering if anyone by chance has seen an increase in fluttering speed when in shallow water (I'm talking less than 1', around 8-10'') using ST Turbo's compared to the other two fin types.

Thanks in advance!

I am using the turbo fins on my Adventure and travel in the flats over oyster beds a lots. I don't think the fluttering speed is important in shallow water. You want to keep you speed to the minimum necessary given wind and current over the shallows to avoid damage to the post and fins. Also remember to pop the rudder in shallows because it sticks down below the fins when fluttering.

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I'm right 98% of the time. The other 3% I don't worry about.

Thanks for the response Ranger, that is a good point. The water I fish in tends to be clear and shallow, and I have trained myself to be more aware for oyster reefs since my first outing. That said, did you notice anything at all after switching to Turbos when fluttering? My dream was that they would flutter the kayak a little faster which would make up for the inconvience of having to flutter sooner in the first place compared to the standard fins (I often find myself in water just barely deep enough to fully operate the standard fins). Either way, I will probably buy the Turbos since I have the option of fishing in deeper water to get some use out of them.

I really can't say the difference was as noticable the way it was with a full stroke in open water. I didn't pay any attention to any difference. If I had to guess it was a wash between a shorter stroke with the longer fins and a longer stroke with the shorter fins. End result, less work with same result. Sorry I can't be of any more help.

The gain in deep water is well worth the change to the Turbo's, if you get what you want in the shallows consider it a plus.

You guys have used a term I haven't heard yet....fluttering? What is that?

That would be using the mirage drive with only slight movement of your feet. Say one or two inches and then the fins only move slightly too. Not to be use for power or speed, just to slightly move you with control.

And normally with the pedals at the widest distance, but can be used any time. If you are in shallow water you can still move the kayak without needing to break out the paddles by using a flutter stroke.

Fluttering - Old indian word meaning "Hope to hell I don't hit bottom with chief's canoe".

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I'm right 98% of the time. The other 3% I don't worry about.

I have used all three fins now. I changed the original fin to the ST Turbo's very soon after buying my revolution. I just downgraded to the ST fin. I bought a revo for my wife and she has the original fin. I would like to add my experience to the topic.

Standard Fin - Very Very easy to pedal with good speed. Flutter is easy and keeps you going to navigate over shallows. All in All a great fin and non-fatiguing. I now find them too easy after using Turbo and ST fins.

ST Fin - Not much of an increase in effort compared to the Standard Fin but noticable speed increase even in a flutter stroke. Good for endurance sprinting without fatigue. A highly recommended upgrade.

ST Turbo - Very Noticable increase in effort as described like riding a bike uphill. Speed increase over ST Fin about 10% sometimes not worth the increase in effort. The flutter not a major noticable difference from the ST Fin. The Turbos wear you out much faster in a sprint (running away from bad weather) without giving you alot of added speed. Great for excercise but honestly depends on individual and his/her planned kayak use as to whether it is worth the extra effort for small gain in speed. There was such a difference going down to the ST from the Turbo. I am preferring the ST Fin over the Turbo. The Turbos give you a nice daggerboard effect when sailing the revolution.

Hope the information is helpful.

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I would rather be kayaking and think about work than to be at work thinking about kayaking.
A Thrill Ride is being dragged around in your kayak for 40 minutes by an extremely large fish.

Thank you for your responses to my "fluttering" query. I had kinda thought maybe that was what you were talking about, but it is good to have some of you "older hands" guiding us newbie's.

Revo, excellent comparison on the fin types. STs are often overlooked and are great performers. Additionally, they are less expensive and easier to install then Turbos.

Turbos are fairly sensitive to the clew setting. Too tight and they can be quite fatiguing for very little or no gain over the STs; set loosely and they become noticeably different fins. There is also a difference depending on the vintage of the fins. A lot of folks don't realize that Turbos are now in (at least) their third generation.

The original Turbos hit the water about May 2006. The second generation came out early 2007 with a slightly shorter mast and some re-cutting around the chain. The shorter mast de-powered the fin slightly. The third version has been around for a little over a year and and is vastly improved. Having a different combination of materials, it is much more rugged and yet, also more flexible and easier to push. When my daughter tried these she switched from STs to the Turbos as her first choice.

As you pointed out, you don't see a lot of top speed advantage with Turbos. Looking at speed vs. power requirements though, I read that an Outback, for instance requires about 127 Watts of power to do 4.5 MPH, but 200W to hit 5.0 MPH. That's a 57% power increase for just an 11% gain in speed!

If properly adjusted, the most recent Turbos are great low cadence cruisers, fantastic for acceleration, more useful for sailing (as a daggerboard) and slightly more efficient overall (with a higher aspect ratio) than the STs. Still, STs may be the best bang for the buck for many and are definitely easier to push at a faster cadence. I also agree that for "fluttering", both fins are comparable.

Thanks for the insight everyone, I appreciate the responses! Appears fluttering in the shallow stuff with Turbos will be at least as good as the standard fins. Glad to read that!

Great Input roadrunner thanks.

I kept my Turbos with a pretty tight clew setting. I never really practiced with different settings. I loosened the setting once and really did not find much difference so went back to original settings.

I still have my Turbos of course for if and when I want to go back to them. Great Fin I will not knock it. You do have to be more aware of shallows with the longer masts.

Revo

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I would rather be kayaking and think about work than to be at work thinking about kayaking.
A Thrill Ride is being dragged around in your kayak for 40 minutes by an extremely large fish.

I've got two Outbacks, one with standard fins, one with ST and I've got the Turbo fins on the PA. I have to say that the comments above are "spot on." I probably won't change the Turbos out for ST fins on the PA because of it's weight, but I might swap drive systems just to see how it performs. I'm 66 years old and I do detect a bit of a "hump" when doing a transit run with the PA using the Turbo fins. I'd have to say I can't keep up the pace I can with the ST's on the Outback. I've been able to go nonstop for longer than most want to do paddling with the Outbacks. I'll do a comparison run next time out. My all around best working set is the ST fins on the Outbacks but the wife doesn't go out enough to make me want to change hers out. The ST's won't over power the hull, doesn't "hump" as hard as the Turbo's and not a tremendous difference in speed unless you start doing the "watts/speed" comparison. The standard fins are almost effortless, like pedaling in air, and the cadence needs stepped up to compare to the ST fins. I sail the PA on occasion and I'm sure the extra little bit of length with the Turbo's help with that effort. Wow, what a mish-mash of information. Good luck.

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Yakkingaway
Portsmouth, VA