Hobie Tandem Island : designing a new hull

Hi everyone,

I have owned a 2021 TI for a year now and I clearly love it.
Everything on this boat is awesome (versatility, Mirage drive, easy to rig and launch, payload, hatches, etc...) except for one thing : why the hell did Hobie Cat choose to design the central hull as a kayak hull which is clearly not the best choice for a sail boat ?
I was sailing this morning and I could feel and see that the overall performances were clearly limited by all that wet surface induced by that flat kayak hull, which made me even think of designing and building a new central hull of my own (with plywood and epoxy).

The thing is I don't understand why Hobie did not radically change the design of the central hull when they launched the AI / TI 2.0 because, from what I can see online, EI/TI users are clearly more sailers than kayakists.
See for yourself :
- not a single video on YT where someone uses à TI / AI as "monohull kayak" (hell, they suck at that being too heavy... I know I've tried),
- many videos are performance related (max speed, etc...) under sails,
- most DIY improvements are oriented toward enhancing the boat sailing capabilities eg adding a jib or dealing with the spinnaker issues,
- not a single tread on this forum dealing with how to improve the boat as a kayak,
- the only two things Hobie sells to upgrade the way the boat is powered are an electric engine and a SPINNAKER kit (clearly a sailer stuff not kayakist)...

So why keep that kayak shape when I am sure that most of us would rather have a hull shaped as one of a multihull sailboat (which by the way are what made Hobie Cat famous for) for better overall performance.

I agree,

The Island series sailing kayaks need a refresh and or a fully new design.

The kayak world is evolving quickly .... but it seems .... the Island sailing kayaks are stuck in the back waters with only minor updates (mirage drives, rudder) from the original design. Time is moving on.... and it seems Hobie is backing away from the Islands.... evidence the discontinuing of the Adventure Island....

I tried to give Mr. Hobie a gentle push to update the Islands.... with this post. https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=63495 Lots of innovative ideas and worthy of reading all the posts.


Hobie Tandem Offshore by Jim Powers, on Flickr

Hobie Tandem Offshore by Jim Powers, on Flickr



But so far, no hard evidence of any major refresh update for the Islands.

I was following ICAST kayak show earlier this month but looks like only minor update from Hobie with the rotomolded Hobie Passport R Series kayak. I appreciate the lower cost for the rotomolded kayak.... just hoping the Islands will receive some attention.

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

Nice thinking !

One thing though : why keep calling it a "sailing kayak" when clearly nobody buys it and uses it for its kayak capabililities but as a "versatile (and rather cheap) trimaran sailboat" ? Hell, even the tiller extension that Hobie sells is a "sailer stuff" !!!

I am pretty sure that with just a new V-shape hull this boat could easily increase its average speed by 50% making her a very credible alternative to the much more expensive Weta (not to mention Astus - Vive la France ! - or Corsair trimarans which are great boats but in a whole different price scale).

Damned !!! I live in French Polynesia and last week I was struggling to keep up pace with a local Va'a Hoe (the local equivalent of the Hawaiian outrigger canoe - called Wa'a in Hawaii - Va'a Hoe or V1 is a single person outrigger canoe - V6 have a 6-member crew). The guy was alone, and paddling with a single paddle, and it was hard for me to keep up pace while sailing downwind (8-10 knots of wind) even if I hadn't raised the spinnaker.

There have been owners who did some tweeks to improve speed. I agree, there are some real drawbacks to the hull shape. That said it was a huge improvement in 2016(?) to add some volume to the bows. Before then the boat would dive like a submarine in a puff. I would like to see a little planing action from the hull instead of silly mods to the mirage drive mechanism.

Sailed this morning :
around 8 knots (gusts at 10 knots) of wind. Max speed upwind (GPS) : 5 knots, downwind : 7.3 knots broad reach on a surf with the spinnaker up.
It was obvious that the boat did not lack power but was struggling "pushing the water".

A planning hull is not required on a multihull : they need to be narrow but high (to keep buyancy).

What strikes me is that the flat kayak shape's only purpose is to provide stability IF the TI/AI is used as a kayak without the amas (and obviously the sail).
How many owners / users use it that way ? If none, then why keep it that way ?

I would be glad to have Matt Miller's point of view regarding this issue.

This could be a very good alternative :

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/expanded ... W1jE6_O2Nc

The TI was never designed or marketed as a performance sailboat. It's was designed to be a unique tri-powered kayak expanding on Hobie's existing line of MirageDrive kayaks. It's marketed primarily for people who enjoy kayaking but would like to add a sail (and/or an available electric motor) in addition to the MirageDrive. It's a multipurpose kayak, it is not marketed to sailboaters who desire high performance. If you're such a person, you bought the wrong boat.

Could Hobie design and market a rotomolded higher-performance sailboat? Of course, and they already have for years. See their current line of Wave and their Getaway sailboats. These are true sailboats and their focus is on sailing, not kayaking.

The TI's versatility and popularity may have expanded it beyond its intended customer base and some might (somewhat erroneously) consider it primarily a sailboat, but that doesn't mean it falls short of its intended purpose of being a multipurpose, tri-powered kayak. I often use it as only a motored kayak, sans sail, because it's one of the most stable and safe kayaks for larger, potentially more dangerous bodies of water and even light off-shore use. For this purpose, no other kayak can beat it. On days when I feel like sailing, I can use it as a sailboat. I value its unique versatility and am not concerned that it's not the best-performing kayak or sailboat individually.

I would love to see a redesign of the TI, any boat can be improved, but for what it was designed and intended for, it's still one of the best and most unique products in its class worldwide and it's still incredible just as it currently is. We're very lucky Hobie still produces it. Few other boat manufacturers seem interested in manufacturing a tri-powered sailing kayak due to the price and performance trade-offs and available profitable customer base. I'll be satisfied even if it remains the same for another decade because there's nothing else like it. I can buy a dedicated kayak, I can buy a dedicated sailboat, but it's very rare to have both in the same boat. It may not be the best performing kayak or sailboat, but few can do both.

@Pro10is

Thank you for your long and very interesting answer.

Am I a sailboater ? Definitely. Did I buy a Ti for its kayak capaibilities ? Not a second. I bought the TI because, from my point of view, it is also unique : the cheapest trimaran on the market that is not oriented towards pure performance (like the Weta for instance) and that offers a rare capability of carrying enough camping gear to go on a coastal / inshore saling-camping trip.

Do I regret buying a TI ? Not a second (I even sold my old beach cat 2 weeks ago) and moreover my wife loves it. Yet, I would be very interested in reading a comprehensive survey on the use or our boat.

Agree, the TI unique value is the multiple modes of propulsion: peddle, paddle, sail, option for a motor (gas or electric).

That said, the TI needs an update. The updates could provide additional versatility and value across the multi mode use cases (kayak, sail, motor)....Making the Hobie TI and even better. Seeing the major innovations in the kayak / small sail boats / electric propulsion areas over just the last couple of years brings my hopes up that a few of these ideas will roll back to an updated Tandem Island...


I continue to enjoy the TI on a monthly basis.

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

It would be great if the TI received an update, but I'm not sure it "needs" one. It continues to do everything it was designed to do quite well. It has received several decent incremental updates over the years, but nothing so great as to really make a huge difference from the original concept. It could be significantly improved by a radical update but that would require considerable investment on Hobie's part. I doubt that they're willing to do that at this time.

Keep in mind that Hobie is still undergoing a recent major transformation. Hobie Alter sold Hobie Cat to the Coleman Company, Inc. in 1976 and died in 2014, so his influence is now primarily historical. In January 2021 Hobie Cat was discretely sold to a private equity group consisting of executives from Detroit industrial auction company Maynards Industries and is now led by a new Canadian chairman named Taso Sofikitis. It's difficult to find any revealing information about him or Maynards Industries. It's hard to imagine why executives from an industrial auction company with no apparent experience in the recreational boating market would buy a company that designs and manufactures sailing catamarans, surfboards, sailboats, kayaks, stand-up paddle boards, and pedalboards, but they did. To be fair, their official statement was "The outdoor recreation industry represents an opportunity that excites us as active individuals and promises near and long-term growth potential. Sales of kayaks and other watercraft are booming, and we see an opportunity to continue Hobie’s legacy of innovation and improve the product distribution process. Hobie’s iconic brand and the ‘Hobie way of life’ culture are authentic. The Hobie story is unique, and we feel a deep sense of responsibility to maintain and grow the brand’s legacy.".

This sounds promising but one of the first decisions they made was to discontinue the iconic Adventure Island which had been available since 2006. Is the Tandem Island next? Hopefully not, but it's hard to imagine them investing in a major redesign after such a downsize. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

So again, I'll be happy if they simply continue selling the TI as it is. If both the highly unique TI and AI are discontinued, it will be a major loss to the recreational boating world.

Agree,

I have the same fears with the new ownership and the decision to discontinue the Adventure Island is a possible early signal of the business direction to drop low volume, low margin products.

I like you hope the TI is not next in line to be discontinued.

Yes the kayak industry has made major jumps in innovation and products over the last few years.

The increased competitive pressures from other kayak vendors who are adding volume and innovation to the kayak marketplace is beginning to cut into Hobie's market share for high end water sports products.

I fear that the TI, if left unchanged, will decline and be on the chopping blocks soon....

So what strategy is best?

- Leave the TI as is - no changes - even this path has costs as molds used for the rotomolded hulls require periodic refurbishment (even with no changes)..... heard rumor that there may be problems with the current TI mold .... compounded by dealers unable to deliver new TIs.... Low sales volumes will reduce profit margins even further....

- Refresh the TI design with a new center hull (see prior post for ideas), (keeping all other components the same (Almas, Akas, mast, sail, rudder) to keep investment costs low. Goal - a refreshed product with minor investment will increase interest and sales volume that will help keep cost lower and margins higher long term.

- Move to a totally new design (at a higher investment level) - see above post for ideas on a new "Offshore / Coastal Island"

- Or .... another manufacturer moves into the Island space with a competitive offering.....

I think the proliferation of small electric outboard motors will begin to change the marketplace for small versatile water craft like the Hobie TI.

Sofikitis (Maynards Industries CEO) - in an interview with Paddle Magazine in 2021 stated:

“Our engineering and design teams are fired up and already working to develop new Hobie experiences for 2022, 2023, and beyond,” he said. “We’re inspired by and committed to carrying on our founder Hobie Alter’s example as a legendary innovator who made watersports accessible to the masses while keeping fun his guiding principle.”

I hope the Hobie Tandem Island is part of the new Hobie experiences for 2022-2023...

Time will tell.

Keep your Tandem Island close....

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

I can tell you that we are in good hands! They saw a big opportunity with the Hobie Brand when the company went up for sale by the (older) owners. These guys are young and enthusiastic about Hobie and are heavily investing in us on many levels. They see a bright future and have been working hard to help us succeed. We have had some tough times with Covid and Worldwide supply issues. We have been taking on new hires and investing in design, tooling, materials inventory and manufacturing. They brought our Netherlands distributor in-house... lots of positive changes happening.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

Matt,

Great news to get your inside perspective and glad that the Hobie innovation and inner fire has not gone out.

Looking forward to the fruits of your and the Hobie teams efforts in the months to come....

Still hoping for a refresh of the TI design

Now back to some fun sailing (waiting on some wind).

_________________
Jim
Hobie TI 2022 - Offshore rig - Outboard - having fun!
Hobie TI 2021 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie TI 2016 - Offshore rig - Outboard - sold
Hobie Kona 2014
Hobie AI 2015 - sold
Hobie Rev 13 2014 - sold
Hobie Outback - 2008 - sold

All these Tandem Island improvement ideas are interesting but, honestly, the two most important changes I would like to see are also two that will not happen:

1. An integrated or optional outboard motor rear-side-mount that is Hobie-approved for up to 3HP equivalent (like Torqeedo or ePropulsion electric outboards).

2. Redesigned/reinforced hull bottom such that tubular (PVC or other) trailers of a specified length, diameter, and spacing are approved for upright transport and storage. Would require redesign of the seat drains and possibly scuppers. The hull bottom shape is already a very close match for properly spaced 3" diameter bunks, not that much change would be needed. Maybe a slight decrease in rocker and some reshaping.

Peter

_________________
2016 Hobie Oasis with Evolve v2 rudder mount, Sidekick ama kit, Mirage sail kit, Garmin echoMAP CHIRP 42dv, bilge pump
2007 Hobie Outfitter x 2 with Mirage sail kits, large rudder blades

Yep...

Officially approuved motor side-mount would be a great idea.
Even more since my local Hobie retailer told me that the Evolve 2 was "decommissioned".